I didn’t need any help… Freep

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> U.S. Won

Oh, oh … and I forgot chasing after non-custodial parents who will go to great lengths not to pay their child support!                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

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>BP is now 123 over 74.  Recent blood tests:  Cholesterol total = 119,  HgA1c >= 4.5   Triglycerides = 84…. and I am not taking ANY prescription >medicines. None. Nada. Zilch.  All other test results are within normal >ranges.

Very nice. Call me when you are no longer morbidly obese. The Not So Fine Art Of Google http://makeashorterlink.com/?E29A321E6

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> RTCs Most Frequent Cruisers – Arlene, Ermalee, Jean O’Boyle, Howie and > Eileen >  If you have to be associated with something, this is a great spot to be on >this list. > Arlene <—planning 2005

Amen to that.   Ermalee <—with tiara slightly atilt

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After long and careful consideration, the RTC Awards Committee is pleased to announce the following award winners for 2003. RTCs Most Amusing Poster – Sunny (you can laugh with her/at her) The People All RTC Wants To Meet – Odysseus, Linsifer The Poster We Miss the most – Tom Gauldin Posters We Would Never Miss – Sue Mullen, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer Most Helpful Posters – Thomas Smith, Diana Ball RTCs Biggest Smarty Pants – Eileen McDonald, Lee Schwartzberg RTCs Worst Spammer by a Commercial Website – Cruisemates RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Female – Pam "Lunyma" RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Male – Mr. Tractor RTCs Most Confused Poster – Brenda Most Creative Punctuation – Steve in FLL (Web TV Division) Most Creative Punctuation – Ken G (AOL Division) Most Creative Punctuation – Suzette Whitfield (PC Division) RTCs Queen Of The Newsgroup – Ermalee RTCs Closet Queen Of The Newsgroup – Howard Garland Worst Troll Feeders – Mike Cordelli, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer RTCs Spammer of the Year – Ray Goldenberg the Teflon TA RTCs Most Helpful TA – Cal Ford RTCs Silliest Group – Sue Whitfield’s Viking Cruise RTCs Fattest Travel Agent – George (Fat Ass) Leppla RTCs Most Obnoxious TA – Peter Berlin RTCs Biggest Snob  - Wolfgang Petrusch (TA division) RTC’s Biggest Snob – Howard (I’ve been on 41 cruises)Garland The RTC Award for Most Holiday Cruises – Diana Ball, Lee Lindquist RTC People Who Should Post More Often – Lee Lindquist, Muffin, Becca, Ernest Roller HAL’s Biggest Fan(s) – Dick and Danni Goldhaber Celebrity’s Biggest Fans – Babette, Tom Kanitra Princess Biggest Fan – Lee Lindquist RTC Poster Who is Most Likely Senile – Dick Goldhaber RTCs Oddest Couple – Howard and Eileen RTCs Resident Curmudgeon – Charles RTCs Most Boring Poster – Benjamin Smith RTCs Resident Carnival Basher – Tom Kinitra Poster who needs Hormone Replacement Therapy – Eileen McDonald RTCs Best Mystery – The  reason for Cupcakes early retirement RTCs Person Most in Need of a Life – Paul Slinski RTCs Resident Computer Geek – Lloyd RTCs Cheapest Tipper – Elliot Shapiro Most Political Poster – Chris RTCs Funniest Hat – Dennis Harris RTCs Biggest Horse’s Ass – Chuck K. RTCs Award for most Questions asked – Ali’s Daddy RTCs best signature line – Mason Barge RTCs Most Frequent Cruisers – Arlene, Ermalee, Jean O’Boyle, Howie and Eileen

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First, who is it that did this? It’s kind of fun Just YI though, rtc.org is the website for "Religious Technology Center". Which is affiliated with the Church of Scientology. Rather interesting page actually | | RTCs Most Amusing Poster – Sunny (you can laugh with her/at her) Maybe someday I can win this one since I am an aspiring comedian. | | RTCs Biggest Smarty Pants – Eileen McDonald, Lee Schwartzberg <waves hands> Once I get more comfortable with people here, I’ll be this for sure  lol. | | RTCs Most Confused Poster – Brenda | I could be considered the most coinfused, or at the very least, the poster that tend to do the most confusing lol | | RTCs Queen Of The Newsgroup – Ermalee Hmmm, maybe I should go for this one… But the swimsuit competition would get me. | | Worst Troll Feeders – Mike Cordelli, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer <sigh> I will definitely be here next year. I can be so naive sometimes. | | RTC’s Biggest Snob – Howard (I’ve been on 41 cruises)Garland LOL I don’t think he seems snobby at all. If anything, I would say he is a bit obsessed. Which, I can relate to. | | RTCs Person Most in Need of a Life – Paul Slinski ohhh. Hope I dont ever get accused of this (although it is true sometimes lol) | | RTCs Cheapest Tipper – Elliot Shapiro hmmm. I *might* be like this, so Elliot might have competition. | | RTCs Biggest Horse’s Ass – Chuck K. <hides from the "committee"> | | RTCs Award for most Questions asked – Ali’s Daddy YAY me! But thats just because I NEVER shut up lol. Hmm. Maybe this time next year, with at least 2 cruises under my belt, I will be abel to *answer* questions. — LES! To send me an email, please remove Your Hat

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Word!

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> After long and careful consideration, the RTC Awards Committee is pleased to > announce the following award winners for 2003. > Most Helpful Posters – Thomas Smith, Diana Ball

Well, at least I didn’t make troll of the year Tom Smith

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Howie… you’re a man of many "words". –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Word!

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In accepting this "Rekkie" award, I’d like to than my mom and dad, my wife and kids, the committee, the academy, my producer, my director, my co-stars, my TAs, my friends, my… –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After long and careful consideration, the RTC Awards Committee is pleased to > announce the following award winners for 2003. > RTCs Most Amusing Poster – Sunny (you can laugh with her/at her) > The People All RTC Wants To Meet – Odysseus, Linsifer > The Poster We Miss the most – Tom Gauldin > Posters We Would Never Miss – Sue Mullen, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer > Most Helpful Posters – Thomas Smith, Diana Ball > RTCs Biggest Smarty Pants – Eileen McDonald, Lee Schwartzberg > RTCs Worst Spammer by a Commercial Website – Cruisemates > RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Female – Pam "Lunyma" > RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Male – Mr. Tractor > RTCs Most Confused Poster – Brenda > Most Creative Punctuation – Steve in FLL (Web TV Division) > Most Creative Punctuation – Ken G (AOL Division) > Most Creative Punctuation – Suzette Whitfield (PC Division) > RTCs Queen Of The Newsgroup – Ermalee > RTCs Closet Queen Of The Newsgroup – Howard Garland > Worst Troll Feeders – Mike Cordelli, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer > RTCs Spammer of the Year – Ray Goldenberg the Teflon TA > RTCs Most Helpful TA – Cal Ford > RTCs Silliest Group – Sue Whitfield’s Viking Cruise > RTCs Fattest Travel Agent – George (Fat Ass) Leppla > RTCs Most Obnoxious TA – Peter Berlin > RTCs Biggest Snob  - Wolfgang Petrusch (TA division) > RTC’s Biggest Snob – Howard (I’ve been on 41 cruises)Garland > The RTC Award for Most Holiday Cruises – Diana Ball, Lee Lindquist > RTC People Who Should Post More Often – Lee Lindquist, Muffin, Becca, Ernest > Roller > HAL’s Biggest Fan(s) – Dick and Danni Goldhaber > Celebrity’s Biggest Fans – Babette, Tom Kanitra > Princess Biggest Fan – Lee Lindquist > RTC Poster Who is Most Likely Senile – Dick Goldhaber > RTCs Oddest Couple – Howard and Eileen > RTCs Resident Curmudgeon – Charles > RTCs Most Boring Poster – Benjamin Smith > RTCs Resident Carnival Basher – Tom Kinitra > Poster who needs Hormone Replacement Therapy – Eileen McDonald > RTCs Best Mystery – The  reason for Cupcakes early retirement > RTCs Person Most in Need of a Life – Paul Slinski > RTCs Resident Computer Geek – Lloyd > RTCs Cheapest Tipper – Elliot Shapiro > Most Political Poster – Chris > RTCs Funniest Hat – Dennis Harris > RTCs Biggest Horse’s Ass – Chuck K. > RTCs Award for most Questions asked – Ali’s Daddy > RTCs best signature line – Mason Barge > RTCs Most Frequent Cruisers – Arlene, Ermalee, Jean O’Boyle, Howie and > Eileen

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SUNNY Congratulations on your promotion !!! From most confused poster to most amusing. Hope the award comes with a new boa & tiara. Florence

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> SUNNY > Congratulations on your promotion !!! > From most confused poster to most amusing. > Hope the award comes with a new boa & tiara. > Florence

Don’t forget the silver slippers, Florence! –Jean

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>After long and careful consideration, the RTC Awards Committee is pleased to >announce the following award winners for 2003. >RTCs Most Amusing Poster – Sunny (you can laugh with her/at her)

Preferably at her. >RTCs Biggest Smarty Pants – Eileen McDonald

Reclassification; "Dummy Pants". Hell, she married Howie. >RTCs Worst Spammer by a Commercial Website – Cruisemates

Works for me. >RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Female – Pam "Lunyma"

Let’s not forget Becca! >RTCs Most Confused Poster – Brenda

Confused? 11 times? >RTCs Closet Queen Of The Newsgroup – Howard Garland

It’s been a tough year for Howie and now this. >Worst Troll Feeders – Mike Cordelli, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer

Goldhaber? Does anyone really read this idiot? >RTCs Spammer of the Year – Ray Goldenberg the Teflon TA

Excuse me, that’s not spam. It’s very vital information. http://tinyurl.com/2gmss >RTCs Fattest Travel Agent – George (Fat Ass) Leppla

Hey, he’s down to 270 and claiming he is healthier than a gorilla after mating season. >RTC’s Biggest Snob – Howard (I’ve been on 41 cruises)Garland

On a perfesser’s salary too. Someone killed the proverbial Golden Goose in the Garland household. >RTC Poster Who is Most Likely Senile – Dick Goldhaber

Death is near. Long live dick. >RTCs Oddest Couple – Howard and Eileen Garland

You don’t understand "virtual swingers". Howie posts sex notes to female RTCers. Eileen watches. Howie entices. They do a virtual sex dance on RTC. Sorta a 3some thing without, well, screwing. >RTCs Resident Curmudgeon – Charles

Charles is OK. His idea of fun is to mount a new role of toilet paper. >RTCs Most Boring Poster – Benjamin Smith

Ben’s not boring, he’s, uh, he’s ,uh, he’s consistent. He wants dance floors, he wants better layouts (??), he wants.. OK, he’s not Mr. Excitement. >Poster who needs Hormone Replacement Therapy – Eileen McDonald

HRT? Won’t work. First, one must have REAL sex. http://www.vul-pain.dircon.co.uk/html/sex.htm >RTCs Best Mystery – The  reason for Cupcakes early retirement

Maybe there is a mystery, maybe there is not. Either way, it’s of no nevermind to anyone except Karens. After being a PO and in public (crappy) service for decades, she deserves her time gone. I wonder how many of you understand the danger, the pressure, the scum she has had to deal with. Felons of the worst kind, molesters, violent morons, long hours, tons of paperwork, sitting in courts endlessly, seeing scum go free, and scum come back again. Never once on RTC have I seen anyone appreciate Karens for the work she has accomplished. Rarely does she talk about it; never has to me on email either. I honestly don’t care why she retired, I am glad as hell she finally did. >RTCs Award for most Questions asked – Ali’s Daddy

He ought to get an award simply for putting up with me. Brave young man. Good fortune to him. The Not So Fine Art Of Google http://makeashorterlink.com/?E29A321E6

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>Word!

Scrabble! The Not So Fine Art Of Google http://makeashorterlink.com/?E29A321E6

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>SUNNY >Congratulations on your promotion !!! >From most confused poster to most amusing.

One in the same. Think Curly of The 3 Stooges. The Not So Fine Art Of Google http://makeashorterlink.com/?E29A321E6

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congrats to all the winners!  hmmm, wonder what I have to do for next year! — Sheree – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> SUNNY > Congratulations on your promotion !!! > From most confused poster to most amusing. > Hope the award comes with a new boa & tiara. > Florence

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>SUNNY >Congratulations on your promotion !!! >From most confused poster to most amusing. >Hope the award comes with a new boa & tiara. >Florence

I agree with congrats to Sunny, and she’s welcome to a new boa, just as long as she isn’t reaching out for MY tiara!   Ermalee <—will wearing it proudly on the GGC <g> http://www.ggc2004.com

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> RTCs Most Frequent Cruisers – Arlene, Ermalee, Jean O’Boyle, Howie and > Eileen

  If you have to be associated with something, this is a great spot to be on this list.  Arlene <—planning 2005

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>In accepting this "Rekkie" award, I’d like to than my mom and dad, my >wife and kids, the committee, the academy, my producer, my director, my

Gee Tom,, I wonder what this award will look like  a Cruise Ship on the top.. with a pc under it.. Hmmm we need peter bugda to design one ^^ Trying to keep my Creati/e Puncuation to live up to this award! I already know the VIking Group is a crazy bunch !! and oh the things we are planning next year… a man dressed in a diaper and a Baby Huey bonnet being Pushed around the ship.. Should be funny… and Hey President Bush will be with us again! Susette Join us on our Annual Group Cruise 04Dec04 Jewel of the Seas! Check out our website: www.cruiseoutlets.com

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Brenda Congratultions!! With great reluctance I hand over to you my most coveted award of the Most Confused Poster. For the past three years I have enjoyed owning it. It covers a multitude of things.Being confused and not having to say "I’m sorry" is one of the biggies. Enjoy it and keep it safe. Who knows, I might win it back. purchase a new boa S’nd I

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I nominate you for the best thank you speech, Tom.         Eileen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > In accepting this "Rekkie" award, I’d like to than my mom and dad, my > wife and kids, the committee, the academy, my producer, my director, my > co-stars, my TAs, my friends, my… > –Tom >After long and careful consideration, the RTC Awards Committee is pleased to >announce the following award winners for 2003. >RTCs Most Amusing Poster – Sunny (you can laugh with her/at her) >The People All RTC Wants To Meet – Odysseus, Linsifer >The Poster We Miss the most – Tom Gauldin >Posters We Would Never Miss – Sue Mullen, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer >Most Helpful Posters – Thomas Smith, Diana Ball >RTCs Biggest Smarty Pants – Eileen McDonald, Lee Schwartzberg >RTCs Worst Spammer by a Commercial Website – Cruisemates >RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Female – Pam "Lunyma" >RTCs Most Likely to be Drunk, Male – Mr. Tractor >RTCs Most Confused Poster – Brenda >Most Creative Punctuation – Steve in FLL (Web TV Division) >Most Creative Punctuation – Ken G (AOL Division) >Most Creative Punctuation – Suzette Whitfield (PC Division) >RTCs Queen Of The Newsgroup – Ermalee >RTCs Closet Queen Of The Newsgroup – Howard Garland >Worst Troll Feeders – Mike Cordelli, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer >RTCs Spammer of the Year – Ray Goldenberg the Teflon TA >RTCs Most Helpful TA – Cal Ford >RTCs Silliest Group – Sue Whitfield’s Viking Cruise >RTCs Fattest Travel Agent – George (Fat Ass) Leppla >RTCs Most Obnoxious TA – Peter Berlin >RTCs Biggest Snob  - Wolfgang Petrusch (TA division) >RTC’s Biggest Snob – Howard (I’ve been on 41 cruises)Garland >The RTC Award for Most Holiday Cruises – Diana Ball, Lee Lindquist >RTC People Who Should Post More Often – Lee Lindquist, Muffin, Becca, Ernest >Roller >HAL’s Biggest Fan(s) – Dick and Danni Goldhaber >Celebrity’s Biggest Fans – Babette, Tom Kanitra >Princess Biggest Fan – Lee Lindquist >RTC Poster Who is Most Likely Senile – Dick Goldhaber >RTCs Oddest Couple – Howard and Eileen >RTCs Resident Curmudgeon – Charles >RTCs Most Boring Poster – Benjamin Smith >RTCs Resident Carnival Basher – Tom Kinitra >Poster who needs Hormone Replacement Therapy – Eileen McDonald >RTCs Best Mystery – The  reason for Cupcakes early retirement >RTCs Person Most in Need of a Life – Paul Slinski >RTCs Resident Computer Geek – Lloyd >RTCs Cheapest Tipper – Elliot Shapiro >Most Political Poster – Chris >RTCs Funniest Hat – Dennis Harris >RTCs Biggest Horse’s Ass – Chuck K. >RTCs Award for most Questions asked – Ali’s Daddy >RTCs best signature line – Mason Barge >RTCs Most Frequent Cruisers – Arlene, Ermalee, Jean O’Boyle, Howie and >Eileen

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> >RTCs Fattest Travel Agent – George (Fat Ass) Leppla > Hey, he’s down to 270 and claiming he is healthier than a gorilla > after mating season.

Slight correction.  I am now healthier than a gorilla DURING mating season. <vbg> BP is now 123 over 74.  Recent blood tests:  Cholesterol total = 119,  HgA1c = 4.5   Triglycerides = 84…. and I am not taking ANY prescription medicines. None. Nada. Zilch.  All other test results are within normal ranges. — George in PA    http://www.countryside-travel.com Norwegian Dawn http://www.cruisemaster.com/dawn.htm Sleazy 3 – Carnival Conquest http://www.cruisemaster.com/sleazy3.htm The Mother of All Group Cruises http://www.motherofallgroupcruises.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>RTCs Fattest Travel Agent – George (Fat Ass) Leppla >Hey, he’s down to 270 and claiming he is healthier than a gorilla >after mating season. > Slight correction.  I am now healthier than a gorilla DURING mating season. > <vbg> > BP is now 123 over 74.  Recent blood tests:  Cholesterol total = 119,  HgA1c > = 4.5   Triglycerides = 84…. and I am not taking ANY prescription > medicines. None. Nada. Zilch.  All other test results are within normal > ranges.

George, This is so wonderful to hear, I am very happy for you and hope that all continues to go well in the future. sue – The poster who would never be missed

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>Most Creative Punctuation – Steve in FLL >(Web TV Division)

Why Thank You!? Thank you Very Much!! ;-} I accept this award, knowing full well that it is deserved!!! <vbg> >I think!?!

Steve<—-hasn’t won anything in Years!!!!! >I wonder why???

<;-p… Steve in FLL Life is short. Make fun of it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->2003 http://www.cruisemaster.com/sleazy3.htm >2004 http://www.motherofallgroupcruises

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->RTCs Best Mystery – The  reason for Cupcakes early retirement >Maybe there is a mystery, maybe there is not. Either way, it’s of no >nevermind to anyone except Karens. After being a PO and in public >(crappy) service for decades, she deserves her time gone. >I wonder how many of you understand the danger, the pressure, the scum >she has had to deal with. Felons of the worst kind, molesters, violent >morons, long hours, tons of paperwork, sitting in courts endlessly, >seeing scum go free, and scum come back again. >Never once on RTC have I seen anyone appreciate Karens for the work >she has accomplished. Rarely does she talk about it; never has to me >on email either. >I honestly don’t care why she retired, I am glad as hell she finally >did.

Actually, it happened like this: The scene:  February 25, 2003.  One day after my fifty-fifth birthday and after more than twenty five years of service (in other words, I am finally eligible for retirement … twenty five years of service, at least fifty five years old) Hans:  "Hey, if you wanna go, it’s okay with me.  We can do it, financially, if you want to retire." Karen:  "Yessss!" Even though I was in management in Civil court when I retired ( a perk of long years of service and a job well done), I certainly saw and heard more things that were upsetting, disturbing and outrageous during the time I was a probation officer and during the time I supervised probation officers who supervised felons of the worst kind. I’m talking child molesters, spousal abusers and drug users.  Some may ask why I stayed, why I did this job.  I say " somebody has to." Let me give you an example of what I used to do for a living (many of you can move on to the next post if you’ve ever read what I’ve written in the past about my job): I would guess that many of you have prepared reports of one kind or another in your line of work.  Have you ever had to review autopsy notes and photos before you wrote up your report? I didn’t think so. When was the last time, during the daily course of your day, have you had to oversee a visitation session between a father and the son he *didn’t* murder? How many mornings before lunch have you had to do an in-depth interview  with an eight year old girl about her father’s sexual abuse beginning since before she was even old enough to be verbal? Of course, it’s more difficult now because she doesn’t speak at all these days. She doesn’t smile, either. I’m an animal lover, that’s no secret. Just don’t ask me again to sit across my desk from a thirty-two year old man who clubs puppies to death or burns the fur off cats. Or a bunch of teenaged boys who tied a neigbor’s pet dog to a railroad track. Recently, it was a twelve year old who put all his goldfish in the freezer…alive. Once, years ago, a kid in junior high school "enjoyed" removing turtles from their shells while still alive. Do a home visit with an obviously very bright young woman and talk with her about possibley going on to finish high school and maybe think about a few college course, only to get a phone call the following week from her teenage daughter, informing you she has been stabbed to death by her violent boyfriend, the one she went to court to obtain a restraining order against. Sit across from a hospital worker who is about to give test results to a client of yours.  She trusted you enough to want you to come with her to hear whether she was HIV positive or not.  She was.   Even the stuff that makes me smile sometimes, like having to keep two sets of handcuffs in my desk at work, or assigning someone to monitor the urine testing log and the testing room (would YOU like that job?) So, now…. the progression of posting will be "well, why didn’t  you just quit?’ or "get another job"? Do YOU want to do it? No, I didn’t think so. So, yes, the burnout factor had a LOT do with it.  So did my health. (Thank you, M., for giving me the chance to tell that anonymous poster what he/she was so interested in about my career with the judiciary.)                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

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>After long and careful consideration, the RTC Awards Committee is pleased to >announce the following award winners for 2003. >RTCs Most Amusing Poster – Sunny (you can laugh with her/at her)

More at her than with her >The People All RTC Wants To Meet – Odysseus, Linsifer

Yes, that’s true. >The Poster We Miss the most – Tom Gauldin

Um, nope. >Posters We Would Never Miss – Sue Mullen, Dick Goldhaber, Karen Segboer

Not me, baby.  I’m stayin’ RIGHT here >Most Helpful Posters – Thomas Smith, Diana Ball

Agreed. >RTCs Most Confused Poster – Brenda

And she had to do a lot to take that award over from the past winner. >Most Creative Punctuation – Steve in FLL (Web TV Division) >Most Creative Punctuation – Ken G (AOL Division) >Most Creative Punctuation – Suzette Whitfield (PC Division)

Yes, but they’re very enthusiastic about it! >RTCs Queen Of The Newsgroup – Ermalee >RTCs Closet Queen Of The Newsgroup – Howard Garland

Yes, yes, yesss! >RTCs Oddest Couple – Howard and Eileen

Oh, my … yes >RTCs Resident Curmudgeon – Charles

Maybe I’m getting used to Charles. >RTCs Funniest Hat – Dennis Harris

LOL!                   __ /7__/7__/7__  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::…       http://www.cupcaked.com/reviews (…and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

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I always blame my behaviour on the steroids, now I’ve got another excuse since I own 4 cats! Thanks, I found it really interesting Mel

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All in the mind? > New Scientist vol 176 issue 2366 – 26 October 2002, page 41 > Suspicion is growing that one of the most common human parasites in the > world is messing with our minds. James Randerson reports > HAVE you been acting out of character lately? Are you having trouble > concentrating? Don’t blame late nights or old age – you might be at the > mercy of a mind-altering parasite. A microscopic beast lying low in your > brain may be exercising a subtle form of thought control, turning you into > somebody slightly different. > This might sound pretty far-fetched, but evidence is growing that Toxoplasma > gondii – a relative of the malaria parasite – can change the way you think. > And you might already be infected without knowing it. > Why haven’t you heard any of this before? Because medical opinion insists > that Toxoplasma is nearly always harmless, a cause for concern only to > pregnant women and people with a weakened immune system. The case for the > mind-control hypothesis is far from proven. But if it’s true, the parasite > will become a public health nightmare overnight. > Toxoplasma – or toxo as it is informally known – is one of the most common > human parasites in the world, infecting between 30 and 60 per cent of the > global population. Any mammal can be infected, but it’s only in cats that > toxo can sexually reproduce. It releases eggs that are spread in cat faeces, > and if these end up in moist soil they can remain infective for 18 months. A > passing rat or mouse might pick up the infection from the contaminated soil > and if a cat kills and eats them the life cycle continues. > Toxo’s danger to pregnant women comes from the parasite’s ability to cross > the placenta and trigger a miscarriage or damage the baby’s brain. But such > cases are fairly rare, with only a handful a year in Britain and similar > levels in other developed countries such as the US and Australia. So apart > from warning prospective mothers against emptying the cat’s litter tray, > dealing with toxo has never been a public health priority. > Risk factors vary between countries; most people get toxo from eating > undercooked meat – pigs, cattle and sheep can all carry the parasite. You > can also catch toxo by accidentally ingesting soil traces contaminated with > cat faeces. So always wash your hands after doing the gardening. > In the initial phase of infection, called acute toxoplasmosis, the parasite > is present in the blood. Typically, it causes little more than a headache > and sore throat, although in rare cases it can lead to serious eye damage. > Even if you do visit the doctor, it is almost always dismissed as a viral > infection. > After this initial assault, the parasite hides from the immune system by > forming resistant cysts on muscle and nerve tissue, including the brain – a > stage known as latent toxoplasmosis. For most people, this disappearing act > is the end of the story. Once the parasite has gone to ground it almost > never re-emerges, unless your immune system is suppressed, if you get AIDS, > for example. You keep the latent infection for the rest of your life – there > are no drugs to cure it – but the received medical wisdom is that it is > harmless. > So why the cause for concern? Well, researchers already know that toxo can > manipulate rodents, its natural "intermediate host". Remarkably, rats and > mice behave more recklessly when they are infected (see "Fatal attraction"). > Joanne Webster and her team at Oxford University have found that the hapless > rodents are more active and less scared of new things. They are even > attracted to cat urine. And research by Jaroslav Flegr and colleagues at > Charles University in Prague has shown that rats have slowed reaction times. > All this makes them much more vulnerable to a feline pounce, which is > exactly what the parasite wants. After all, toxo needs to infect a cat (the > "definitive host") to complete its life cycle and spread its genes. > So could humans be subject to the same parasitic puppeteering? True, toxo > would have little evolutionary incentive to influence our actions, as > prehistoric humans were probably not eaten by big cats often enough to make > it pay off. But rat and human brains are very similar. They have many of the > same bits and are run by the same collection of chemicals. No one really > knows how toxo subverts rat behaviour but it’s likely that it interacts with > a chemical in the brain. The chances are that the same substance is in our > brains too, so it’s perfectly feasible that humans experience side effects. > Flegr and his team decided to find out if this were actually happening. They > carried out a series of tests on volunteers, some of whom had a latent > infection, as revealed by antibodies to toxo in their blood. > The results from personality tests were complicated and showed confusing > gender differences, but men at least seemed to mimic one aspect of rat > manipulation. Infected men tended to be more independent and inclined to > break rules, although infected women tended to go the other way. Could it be > that males are being made more reckless, like the rats, while for some > reason the mind-control chemical has the opposite effect in females? At this > stage it’s still unclear, and of course, there’s not necessarily a causal > relationship – certain personalities could simply be more prone to picking > up infections. > But one test, measuring reaction times and attention span, gave more > consistent results (Parasitology, vol 122, p 515). Both men and women who > had a latent infection took longer to press a computer key after a prompt > from the monitor. People without an infection took about 250 milliseconds to > react, but those with a latent infection reacted about 8 per cent slower. > What’s more, toxo-positive subjects did worse as the experiment went on, > suggesting that they have shorter attention spans. Again, the effects in > humans seem to be mimicking those in rats. > Until recently, few people have taken Flegr’s results very seriously. So > what if toxo causes a few strange lab results, what difference does that > make in the real world? What made people sit up and take notice was research > published in August by Flegr’s team showing that humans with a latent > infection are 2.7 times more likely to be involved in a car accident (BMC > Infectious Diseases, www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/2/11). > Dangerous driving > The researchers tested blood samples from 146 people involved in car crashes > for which they were at least partly responsible, and 446 control subjects. > There were more toxo carriers in the "accident" group. It didn’t matter > whether the subject was a driver or a pedestrian, having the parasite makes > you more of a danger to other road users. Worryingly, there’s an obvious > link with Flegr’s reaction time results. And if toxo slows our reaction > times, what other effects is it having? Could it contribute to other > transport accidents or industrial mishaps? > Flegr’s study has certainly raised eyebrows among the small group of > specialists in the field, including some public health officials. For > example, Richard Holliman, a parasite researcher at St George’s Hospital > Medical School in London, says that although the results need to be > replicated: "The implications could be huge." > Longer reaction times might not be the only neurological effect of toxo. > Another controversial idea is that latent infection might trigger some forms > of schizophrenia. Fuller Torrey at the Stanley Medical Research Institute in > Maryland and his team has found that schizophrenics are more likely to be > cat owners, and to have latent toxoplasmosis. What’s more, drugs used to > relieve schizophrenia symptoms happen to harm the parasite, at least in the > test-tube. Torrey believes this may be why the drugs work. > So what should we do if it turns out that significant fractions of the > population are infected with a parasite that slows reactions and possibly > causes serious mental health problems? > Holliman, for one, says that we would have to consider which professions we > allow infected people to enter. Would we want someone with slowed reactions > working as an airline pilot, for example, or driving a lorry? On the other > hand, if we banned all infected people from jobs where fast reactions are > important, we could lose a third of our workforce or more. > In any event, toxo is unlikely to be a problem for airline pilots. The > licensing process usually involves rigorous aptitude testing, which is > designed to weed out anyone with chronic impairments. Tony Evans, deputy > chief medical officer at the UK Civil Aviation Authority says: "If you’re > performing below par, you’re not going to get through the course." > But what about all the other professions where reaction times matter? If it > turns out that latent toxoplasmosis really slows you down should bus drivers > or machinery operators be screened for the parasite? And if insurance > companies decide that toxo-positive drivers are a greater risk, will they be > justified in charging them higher premiums? > Cutting the number of people who become infected with toxo in the first > place is clearly an important way forward. Unfortunately, the only animal > species for which a vaccine is available is sheep, because acute infection > has serious consequences for farmers. So-called "abortion storms", when up > to 50 per cent of ewes in a flock miscarry, occur because they’re exposed to > the parasite. > But progress towards a human vaccine has been frustratingly slow. > Researchers have identified components of the

… read more »

Response:

All in the mind? New Scientist vol 176 issue 2366 – 26 October 2002, page 41 Suspicion is growing that one of the most common human parasites in the world is messing with our minds. James Randerson reports HAVE you been acting out of character lately? Are you having trouble concentrating? Don’t blame late nights or old age – you might be at the mercy of a mind-altering parasite. A microscopic beast lying low in your brain may be exercising a subtle form of thought control, turning you into somebody slightly different. This might sound pretty far-fetched, but evidence is growing that Toxoplasma gondii – a relative of the malaria parasite – can change the way you think. And you might already be infected without knowing it. Why haven’t you heard any of this before? Because medical opinion insists that Toxoplasma is nearly always harmless, a cause for concern only to pregnant women and people with a weakened immune system. The case for the mind-control hypothesis is far from proven. But if it’s true, the parasite will become a public health nightmare overnight. Toxoplasma – or toxo as it is informally known – is one of the most common human parasites in the world, infecting between 30 and 60 per cent of the global population. Any mammal can be infected, but it’s only in cats that toxo can sexually reproduce. It releases eggs that are spread in cat faeces, and if these end up in moist soil they can remain infective for 18 months. A passing rat or mouse might pick up the infection from the contaminated soil and if a cat kills and eats them the life cycle continues. Toxo’s danger to pregnant women comes from the parasite’s ability to cross the placenta and trigger a miscarriage or damage the baby’s brain. But such cases are fairly rare, with only a handful a year in Britain and similar levels in other developed countries such as the US and Australia. So apart from warning prospective mothers against emptying the cat’s litter tray, dealing with toxo has never been a public health priority. Risk factors vary between countries; most people get toxo from eating undercooked meat – pigs, cattle and sheep can all carry the parasite. You can also catch toxo by accidentally ingesting soil traces contaminated with cat faeces. So always wash your hands after doing the gardening. In the initial phase of infection, called acute toxoplasmosis, the parasite is present in the blood. Typically, it causes little more than a headache and sore throat, although in rare cases it can lead to serious eye damage. Even if you do visit the doctor, it is almost always dismissed as a viral infection. After this initial assault, the parasite hides from the immune system by forming resistant cysts on muscle and nerve tissue, including the brain – a stage known as latent toxoplasmosis. For most people, this disappearing act is the end of the story. Once the parasite has gone to ground it almost never re-emerges, unless your immune system is suppressed, if you get AIDS, for example. You keep the latent infection for the rest of your life – there are no drugs to cure it – but the received medical wisdom is that it is harmless. So why the cause for concern? Well, researchers already know that toxo can manipulate rodents, its natural "intermediate host". Remarkably, rats and mice behave more recklessly when they are infected (see "Fatal attraction"). Joanne Webster and her team at Oxford University have found that the hapless rodents are more active and less scared of new things. They are even attracted to cat urine. And research by Jaroslav Flegr and colleagues at Charles University in Prague has shown that rats have slowed reaction times. All this makes them much more vulnerable to a feline pounce, which is exactly what the parasite wants. After all, toxo needs to infect a cat (the "definitive host") to complete its life cycle and spread its genes. So could humans be subject to the same parasitic puppeteering? True, toxo would have little evolutionary incentive to influence our actions, as prehistoric humans were probably not eaten by big cats often enough to make it pay off. But rat and human brains are very similar. They have many of the same bits and are run by the same collection of chemicals. No one really knows how toxo subverts rat behaviour but it’s likely that it interacts with a chemical in the brain. The chances are that the same substance is in our brains too, so it’s perfectly feasible that humans experience side effects. Flegr and his team decided to find out if this were actually happening. They carried out a series of tests on volunteers, some of whom had a latent infection, as revealed by antibodies to toxo in their blood. The results from personality tests were complicated and showed confusing gender differences, but men at least seemed to mimic one aspect of rat manipulation. Infected men tended to be more independent and inclined to break rules, although infected women tended to go the other way. Could it be that males are being made more reckless, like the rats, while for some reason the mind-control chemical has the opposite effect in females? At this stage it’s still unclear, and of course, there’s not necessarily a causal relationship – certain personalities could simply be more prone to picking up infections. But one test, measuring reaction times and attention span, gave more consistent results (Parasitology, vol 122, p 515). Both men and women who had a latent infection took longer to press a computer key after a prompt from the monitor. People without an infection took about 250 milliseconds to react, but those with a latent infection reacted about 8 per cent slower. What’s more, toxo-positive subjects did worse as the experiment went on, suggesting that they have shorter attention spans. Again, the effects in humans seem to be mimicking those in rats. Until recently, few people have taken Flegr’s results very seriously. So what if toxo causes a few strange lab results, what difference does that make in the real world? What made people sit up and take notice was research published in August by Flegr’s team showing that humans with a latent infection are 2.7 times more likely to be involved in a car accident (BMC Infectious Diseases, www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/2/11). Dangerous driving The researchers tested blood samples from 146 people involved in car crashes for which they were at least partly responsible, and 446 control subjects. There were more toxo carriers in the "accident" group. It didn’t matter whether the subject was a driver or a pedestrian, having the parasite makes you more of a danger to other road users. Worryingly, there’s an obvious link with Flegr’s reaction time results. And if toxo slows our reaction times, what other effects is it having? Could it contribute to other transport accidents or industrial mishaps? Flegr’s study has certainly raised eyebrows among the small group of specialists in the field, including some public health officials. For example, Richard Holliman, a parasite researcher at St George’s Hospital Medical School in London, says that although the results need to be replicated: "The implications could be huge." Longer reaction times might not be the only neurological effect of toxo. Another controversial idea is that latent infection might trigger some forms of schizophrenia. Fuller Torrey at the Stanley Medical Research Institute in Maryland and his team has found that schizophrenics are more likely to be cat owners, and to have latent toxoplasmosis. What’s more, drugs used to relieve schizophrenia symptoms happen to harm the parasite, at least in the test-tube. Torrey believes this may be why the drugs work. So what should we do if it turns out that significant fractions of the population are infected with a parasite that slows reactions and possibly causes serious mental health problems? Holliman, for one, says that we would have to consider which professions we allow infected people to enter. Would we want someone with slowed reactions working as an airline pilot, for example, or driving a lorry? On the other hand, if we banned all infected people from jobs where fast reactions are important, we could lose a third of our workforce or more. In any event, toxo is unlikely to be a problem for airline pilots. The licensing process usually involves rigorous aptitude testing, which is designed to weed out anyone with chronic impairments. Tony Evans, deputy chief medical officer at the UK Civil Aviation Authority says: "If you’re performing below par, you’re not going to get through the course." But what about all the other professions where reaction times matter? If it turns out that latent toxoplasmosis really slows you down should bus drivers or machinery operators be screened for the parasite? And if insurance companies decide that toxo-positive drivers are a greater risk, will they be justified in charging them higher premiums? Cutting the number of people who become infected with toxo in the first place is clearly an important way forward. Unfortunately, the only animal species for which a vaccine is available is sheep, because acute infection has serious consequences for farmers. So-called "abortion storms", when up to 50 per cent of ewes in a flock miscarry, occur because they’re exposed to the parasite. But progress towards a human vaccine has been frustratingly slow. Researchers have identified components of the parasite that provide some protection against infection when injected into mice. But this early work has stalled through lack of funding. There is not much interest in the area because, although toxo is an important parasite, it doesn’t kill, says Fausto Araujo at the Palo Alto Medical Foundation in California who was involved in the mice studies. Perhaps if the Czech findings are substantiated, vaccine research will acquire a new urgency. In the meantime, the only option seems to be reducing the parasite’s spread through basic public … read more »

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They don’t really hit their sexual prime until 35 or so anyhow. Maybe she’s just waiting until she’s sure she won’t disappoint you. Gives you a little time to improve your accent. I think I saw your bio someplace and I don’t think Elvis can touch you in the looks department. Neal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I believe she is in her early-mid-30s, 33-or so years old, not quite too > young for me. > Elvis Costello’s British accent is more authentic than mine, and she went > for it.  Broke my heart, I tell you. > Edward G. > — > ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to > beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >How’d he ever get her away from a stud ducky of your fame and >attributes? By the by, she seems young to me. Do you know how old she is? >Neal >>Cassandra Wilson is terriffic, in every conceivable way.  The great > thing >>about Diana Krall is she seems so unaware of her own sensationalness. >>Y’know, DK and Elvis Costello are an item these days.  :-( >>Edward G. >>– >>’Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t > wait to >>beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >>>>>You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies. >>>>Tough toenails, because she just so happens to belong to me. >>>>Edward G. >>>>– >>>>’Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t >>wait to >>>>beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >>>Can we work on a lease arrangement? After rehersal Tuesday night when >>>the female vocalist left, my guitarist played "Peel Me a Grape" for the >>>drummer and me and we made the predictable, sexist male comments. I’m >>>sure that, as the knowledgable guys claim, Cassandra Wilson cuts her six >>>ways from Sunday, but DK really moooooves me. >>>Neal >>>Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants >>>"A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer >– >Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants >"A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

– Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants "A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

Response:

I believe she is in her early-mid-30s, 33-or so years old, not quite too young for me. Elvis Costello’s British accent is more authentic than mine, and she went for it.  Broke my heart, I tell you. Edward G. — ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How’d he ever get her away from a stud ducky of your fame and > attributes? By the by, she seems young to me. Do you know how old she is? > Neal > Cassandra Wilson is terriffic, in every conceivable way.  The great thing > about Diana Krall is she seems so unaware of her own sensationalness. > Y’know, DK and Elvis Costello are an item these days.  :-( > Edward G. > — > ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to > beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >>>>You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies. >>>Tough toenails, because she just so happens to belong to me. >>>Edward G. >>>– >>>’Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t > wait to >>>beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >>Can we work on a lease arrangement? After rehersal Tuesday night when >>the female vocalist left, my guitarist played "Peel Me a Grape" for the >>drummer and me and we made the predictable, sexist male comments. I’m >>sure that, as the knowledgable guys claim, Cassandra Wilson cuts her six >>ways from Sunday, but DK really moooooves me. >>Neal >>Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants >>"A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer > — > Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants > "A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

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How’d he ever get her away from a stud ducky of your fame and attributes? By the by, she seems young to me. Do you know how old she is? Neal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Cassandra Wilson is terriffic, in every conceivable way.  The great thing > about Diana Krall is she seems so unaware of her own sensationalness. > Y’know, DK and Elvis Costello are an item these days.  :-( > Edward G. > — > ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to > beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >>>You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies. >>Tough toenails, because she just so happens to belong to me. >>Edward G. >>– >>’Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t > wait to >>beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp >Can we work on a lease arrangement? After rehersal Tuesday night when >the female vocalist left, my guitarist played "Peel Me a Grape" for the >drummer and me and we made the predictable, sexist male comments. I’m >sure that, as the knowledgable guys claim, Cassandra Wilson cuts her six >ways from Sunday, but DK really moooooves me. >Neal >Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants >"A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

– Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants "A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

Response:

> You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies.

Tough toenails, because she just so happens to belong to me. Edward G. — ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp

Response:

>RIP, sister….  you were the real deal.

my sentiments. f – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> _ >’ ):    Ted Partin > /     http://members.aol.com/dblbassted

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies. > Tough toenails, because she just so happens to belong to me. > Edward G. > — > ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to > beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp

Can we work on a lease arrangement? After rehersal Tuesday night when the female vocalist left, my guitarist played "Peel Me a Grape" for the drummer and me and we made the predictable, sexist male comments. I’m sure that, as the knowledgable guys claim, Cassandra Wilson cuts her six ways from Sunday, but DK really moooooves me. Neal Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants "A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

Response:

Cassandra Wilson is terriffic, in every conceivable way.  The great thing about Diana Krall is she seems so unaware of her own sensationalness. Y’know, DK and Elvis Costello are an item these days.  :-( Edward G. — ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies. > Tough toenails, because she just so happens to belong to me. > Edward G. > — > ‘Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can’t wait to > beat another human’s guts out?’ –Joe Kapp > Can we work on a lease arrangement? After rehersal Tuesday night when > the female vocalist left, my guitarist played "Peel Me a Grape" for the > drummer and me and we made the predictable, sexist male comments. I’m > sure that, as the knowledgable guys claim, Cassandra Wilson cuts her six > ways from Sunday, but DK really moooooves me. > Neal > Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants > "A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

Response:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2965221.stm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nina Simone died. > — >          O<  "Pthbt!" >         (( >          )) >      <(  ) >       Z | >          |_ > Steve

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RIP, sister….  you were the real deal.  _ ‘ ):    Ted Partin  /     http://members.aol.com/dblbassted

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She was great. Long live "Jenny The Pirate Girl"

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Her daughter was the lead in ‘Aida’ (Elton John/Tim Rice).  Same last name (Simone).  She was awesome.  I suspect Nina’s legacy will live on through her.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nina Simone died. > — >          O<  "Pthbt!" >         (( >          )) >      <(  ) >       Z | >          |_ > Steve

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You can’t have Diana Krall. I’ve got first dibsies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I really didn’t like her voice…the false vibrato grated. > Nice economical piano tho. > Diana Krall fer me. > Sorry. > Clive. >Nina Simone died. >– >         O<  "Pthbt!" >        (( >         )) >     <(  ) >      Z | >         |_ >Steve > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

– Neal Pollack                            PressPlay Computer Consultants "A still tongue fills a wise head." –Blind Jim Brewer

Response:

> Nina Simone died.

Huh!? Cause? Age? Sad news. — PLL’C

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I really didn’t like her voice…the false vibrato grated. Nice economical piano tho. Diana Krall fer me. Sorry. Clive.

> Nina Simone died. > — >          O<  "Pthbt!" >         (( >          )) >      <(  ) >       Z | >          |_ > Steve

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Nina Simone died. —          O<  "Pthbt!"         ((          ))      <(  )       Z |          |_ Steve

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> >"Laura A. Robinson" >lymphosarcoma) is no >> longer in remission. …> >> Has anybody been through having a cat go into remission and then >> coming out of it? …> > I’m so sorry to hear this, Laura.  Sending lots of healing purrs your way.

Thanks to you both. Laura — Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -Groucho Marx

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"Laura A. Robinson"

lymphosarcoma) is no > longer in remission. …> > Has anybody been through having a cat go into remission and then > coming out of it? …> > Thanks, > Laura

Hi Laura, It sounds like at some point you will have a rough road again.  I don’t have any experience with this, but I’m sending hopeful vibrations your way that this is a false alarm and Alex has a furball after all. Annie

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>"Laura A. Robinson" >lymphosarcoma) is no > longer in remission. …> > Has anybody been through having a cat go into remission and then > coming out of it? …>

I’m so sorry to hear this, Laura.  Sending lots of healing purrs your way. Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043 Better to keep one’s mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt – Abe Lincoln

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> Well, I think that Alex (my cat with intestinal lymphosarcoma) is no > longer in remission. His stomach has been gurgling a bit, he has left > loose stools for the past couple of days, and he was retching last > night, although he didn’t bring anything up. I was hoping it was just > a hairball and gas, but the litterbox leavings really have me > worried. > Has anybody been through having a cat go into remission and then > coming out of it? I know that the chemo tends to be less successful > at that point because the body has developed resistance to the drugs, > but I’m wondering if anybody has any experience with recurrence. > Thanks, > Laura

I’m sorry to hear this. No experience but I want to offer up purrs and good thoughts. Karen

Response:

> > Has anybody been through having a cat go into remission and then > coming out of it? I know that the chemo tends to be less successful > at that point because the body has developed resistance to the drugs, > but I’m wondering if anybody has any experience with recurrence. > Thanks, > Laura > I’m sorry to hear this. No experience but I want to offer up purrs and good > thoughts.

Thanks. I knew it would happen sooner or later; I was just hoping for later. :- Laura — Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -Groucho Marx

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Well, I think that Alex (my cat with intestinal lymphosarcoma) is no longer in remission. His stomach has been gurgling a bit, he has left loose stools for the past couple of days, and he was retching last night, although he didn’t bring anything up. I was hoping it was just a hairball and gas, but the litterbox leavings really have me worried. Has anybody been through having a cat go into remission and then coming out of it? I know that the chemo tends to be less successful at that point because the body has developed resistance to the drugs, but I’m wondering if anybody has any experience with recurrence. Thanks, Laura — Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -Groucho Marx

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>I must have missed something…

Apparently you have. >I find it sad that you would do such a >thing, admirable that you care about >animals in general, but sad that you >wouldn’t just accept that there are some >things you just cant change.

If I can do something that makes a positive difference – such as neutering this cat – which, if left unneutered could potentially be reponsible for untold numbers of homeless, unwanted and eventually dead cats, I’ll take the risk. If you find that sad, I find it even sadder that your focus is so narrow and you don’t see the big picture. But since you’re the same person that said if someone can’t live with a cat that scratches, by all means get it declawed, this doesn’t surprise me. I accept that most likely this man’s attitude cannot be changed, but it doesn’t mean the situation can’t, and if that means implementing a culvert operation to achieve the best outcome, which is getting this cat neutered, it’s absolutely justified. Megan   "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu’s Cats Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=244574

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> He says it’s "cruel to alter nature and remove a cats balls".  And he says > that it will make his cat fat (of course he uses my male neutered cat as a > comparison, who is only slightly overweight, and we are working on it!!!).

Ask him if he takes the approach that condoms are unnatural when *he* has sex. (Of course, if he says yes, then he’s clearly got bigger issues.) Laura — One man’s mundane and boring existence is another man’s Technicolor. -Tick, Strange Days

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >I have tried everything to try and convince him to neuter his cat. > Most of > > >you know me here, and I have used every reason in the book.  I even > offered > > >to pay for the surgery if he booked the appointment.  His cat is always > > >going into the vets because it always gets in fights. > > >WHAT ELSE CAN I DO??? > > >Kelly > > Tell him to stop identifying with the cat. > <snork> > Laura > Yeah, but in many instances, I bet very true!

Thus the snork; I couldn’t help but express a little amusement over how true that probably is. Laura — One man’s mundane and boring existence is another man’s Technicolor. -Tick, Strange Days

Response:

> If it were me, I would have the cat neutered.  Since your friend lets him > out all the time, he won’t know who did it, will he?  I have done this > several times.  Usually the owners never even realize it has been done.

That’s illegal isn’t it?  Your messing with that person’s property even if you think your doing something noble.  At the very least your risking losing your friend, at most your looking at criminal/civil sanctions.   I think its time to accept that there is only so much you can do.   There’s a good verse on this one, but Ill leave it for someone else to quote if they feel like it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m afraid that’s really not possible. I >would have to hang around the outside of >his house (on the other side of town) and >wait for his cat to be let outside. I’m sure >he would notice me.

 I was under the impression you > wanted to discourage people from attending these things.  Well, here I am.

Never did I ever tell you or anybody else to not pay $100 to splash around in a shallow pool with captive cetaceans.  As far as I know, they’re legal enterprises with business licenses, and it’s a free country. > Convince me and you will have a life long convert.

Do what you want; I’m not looking for converts.  I just wanted you to have some information they might not offer you while they take your hard-earned money, so you can make an informed decision. Otherwise, unless I see > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > establishments.

Well, you sure showed me.  That’ll teach me  :) Seriously, I’ll leave you with this thought, for what it’s worth: Have you ever been approached by a dolphin or any large marine animal in its own habitat and on its own terms?   If you ever are lucky enough to come face to face with a 500# dolphin (or 2000# sea lion or 6′ shark or 9′ moray eel), you’ll acquire a great deal of respect for those creatures REAL QUICK, more than you’d ever get by seeing them in a petting zoo.  And maybe, just maybe, you’ll come to believe that these creatures were meant to be free.  You think those dolphins just swam into the pens on their own, and are free to leave anytime they want?  And I believe the term is "secular humanist"  :)

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> I am not an expert, and I apologize if I presented myself as one.

There is no need to apologize. I was just trying to get a better grasp on how to evaluate your opinion. Most people are not going to have the oportunity to spend hours with, or have dinner with the dolphin discovery people as you were able to do. Your response gives more weight to positive opinion of them you expressed. — Charles

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> Otherwise, unless I see > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > establishments.

Physical abuse or mental abuse? –Tom <— wonders how you would see mental abuse???

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> > Otherwise, unless I see > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > establishments. > Physical abuse or mental abuse? > –Tom <— wonders how you would see mental abuse???

That’s a good question!  I was referring to physical abuse but you bring up a good point.  How does one tell if a dolphin is mentally abused?

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Probably the same way they ultimately figured out that animals in zoos prefer large expanses rather than small cages.  They gave gorillas things to climb. But in the end… they may still be miserable in captivity.  Dolphins are supposed to be significantly more intelligent than any other animal except for man. Though I will submit that dolphins don’t hijack planes and crash them into buildings.  They don’t put people in concentration camps.  They don’t shoot school children with guns.  They don’t blow up government buildings. Perhaps… they ARE more intelligent than man. And… maybe man really has no right to keep them in small underwater cages, simply for our own amusement. I guess I would submit that we look at the Stingray City model.  They are wild/free stingrays that choose to visit with people daily.  I say we let the dolphins go free and give THEM the freedom to come visit people if they so choose.  Just like the stingrays. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Otherwise, unless I see > > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > > establishments. > Physical abuse or mental abuse? > –Tom <— wonders how you would see mental abuse??? > That’s a good question!  I was referring to physical abuse but you bring up > a good point.  How does one tell if a dolphin is mentally abused?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have only three comments, posted below… > The moment I read this statement from you, citing religious dogma to support > your position, you lost me.  No way will I or anyone else gain ground with a > person using religion as the basis of their opinion.  That’s two. > There’s an old saying: Man considered himself on a higher plane than > dolphins because Man has developed nuclear weapons and power, the internal > combustion engine, political action committees, consumer-oriented societies, > and bottles of water that cost $2, while all dolphins ever do is eat fish, > swim, play, and make little dolphins.  Now, dolphins feel they are on a > higher plane than Man for the exact same reasons.  That’s three. > Oh, BTW, I’m not a member of any whacko environmental activist group (does > the Sierra Club count as a buncha whackos?).  But before I took on the > careers of a full-time musician and writer, I was studying to be a marine > biologist.  Okay, that’s one more than I said I had.  Oops.

That’s it???  That’s your supporting documentation???  I don’t care that you are a humanistic atheist, or that you consider dolphins to be on a "higher plane" than man, or that you dropped out of college.  All I was asking for is something definitive that would convince me that the dolphin encounters are a bad thing!  I enjoyed my encounters, but if they are abusive to dolphins I would never attend another one.  I was under the impression you wanted to discourage people from attending these things.  Well, here I am. Convince me and you will have a life long convert.  Otherwise, unless I see signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these establishments.

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Charles, sorry, I am about as qualified by training as Sean Penn is too assess the status of weapons in Iraq.   I am not a biologist, I am an engineer.  I am now retired.  I spent time with the people at Dolphin Discovery at the invitation of the young lady who booked my family and friends to Dolphin Discovery on several Western loop cruises.  My wife and I had dinner at her home, and spent several informal hours visiting with her and several of the Dolphin trainers.  We also spent several hours in the Dolphin area with them when there were no paying tourists around. I am not an expert, and I apologize if I presented myself as one.  I have been to two of their locations, one on the mainland, and one at the park in Cozumel.  However, I did feel a bond for the young people who dedicated some years of their lives to work with the Dolphins at this particular location (Cozumel), and I believe they were quite genuine in their efforts and endeavors.   As I recall, they also talked quite a bit about a dolphin exhibit that had opened up about that time (Perhaps this was four years ago, I am not certain) on the west coast of Mexico, wherein they believed the Dolphins were not being treated well, and were being exploited without due care for their well being, so I am not if full disagreement with the very polite and articulate writer on this thread who was critcal of the Dolphin experience in general. I do believe, based on input from these few people (who did seem to understand the business), that there are very different venues for dolphin experiences, and the Dolphin Discovery is one that hires people who make a serious effort to learn from and work with these marvelous creatures. Incidentally, on that visit we also spent time talking about the folks that were leasing horses for horseback riding on the mainland of Mexico for cruise ship passengers.  There was some very poor treatment for those horses (I hope the problem has been resolved over the years) and these individuals were the type of people who cared about all of these things.

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Has anyone taken the Dolphin swim adventure and Dunn’s river falls excursion offered by HAL in Ocho Rios?  Wondering if it is worth the money ($99). We will be there during the week of Dec. 21-28. I greatly appreciate any input.

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I have not done Ocho Rios, but I have some doubts.  If you are on the Western Loop, contact DolphinDiscovery.com before your trip.  You can set up a swim with the Dolphins when the ship docks — this cannot be done on board the ship.  There are two locations near the ship docking areas no matter where they are docking – Dolphin Discovery can assist you.  You can contact them by e-mail or by phone, as there is someone there who speaks English.  When you get to Cozumel or the other Mexican port, you can take a cab to the dolphin swim area. The tour the ship sells only involves wading on the edge of the tank, and costs nearly as much money.  DolphinDiscovery is great and a real adventure with well cared for Dolphins.  

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Thanks RJQMAN.   I will definitely check it out.

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My husband and I booked through Dolphin Discovery 3 years ago and will be taking our kids this February.  It is an incredible experience.

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> My husband and I booked through Dolphin Discovery 3 years ago and will be > taking our kids this February.  It is an incredible experience.

Not for the dolphins.  Their lifespan is cut by 2/3 or more after capture and subjection to these "swim encounters".  Just so you know.

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> My husband and I booked through Dolphin Discovery 3 years ago and will be > taking our kids this February.  It is an incredible experience. > Not for the dolphins.  Their lifespan is cut by 2/3 or more after capture > and subjection to these "swim encounters".  Just so you know.

Would you mind citing your sources?  I have been to the Dolphin Encounters at Nassau and Cozumel.  In both cases the trainers told us of how much longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean.  I can’t recall the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer.  Their explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress of living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical attention and required medical attention when needed.  I would appreciate any information to the contrary. ChrisH

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> Would you mind citing your sources?  I have been to the Dolphin Encounters > at Nassau and Cozumel.  In both cases the trainers told us of how much > longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean.  I can’t recall > the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer.

This is such an audacious lie, I’m surprised they had the nerve to tell you. Their > explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress of > living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical attention > and required medical attention when needed.  I would appreciate any > information to the contrary.

The stress of living in the open ocean?!  Well–fed??  Ay yi yi–and you bought all this? How’s this: bottlenose dolphins have a hunting range of miles and miles and miles.  The ones caught off the coast of Florida for these pens are hunting in either the Gulf Stream or the Gulf of Mexico, two of the richest fishing grounds in the world.  They swim hundreds of miles a day, communicating with not only their family members or their pods, but other pods as well, sometimes with thousands of other dolphins at once.  They dive to catch their food, sometimes down to a hundred meters down–all day and every day. Animals do get sick in the wild, and if it’s a life-threatening illness they die and their remains give nourishment to other organisms.  It’s the law of nature and applies to all living beings from bacteria to humans.  But if allowed to live their life in the natural way they’ve evolved over millions of years, they flourish and prosper.  Dolphins were doing just fine for millennia without preventive health care from humans, you know. Dolphins in captivity are kept in pens, and even the largest of them are nothing more than tanks, maybe thirty feet deep.  They are fed a restricted diet–they don’t hunt, they are fed.  They didn’t ask to be captured and imprisoned.  They are…oh hell.  I’ll put it another way. Suppose one day while out shopping you’re kidnapped, stuck in a box for days, then put in a large bare cubicle to live out the rest of your days. You aren’t allowed to talk to anybody but your captors (who speak a different language than you).  You are fed what they think is good for you. You are compelled to learn and perform tricks and stunts with people riding on your back, whether you want to or not.  You can never run again; there’s not enough room in your cubicle.  You’ll never see your friends of family ever again.  Meanwhile your captors charge people a lot of money so they can come put their hands all over you and ride you like a pony (covering your skin with their pathogens), all in a room with a five foot ceiling. How would you feel after enduring a year of this, with absolutely no chance of escape or change?   Well, that’s what the dolphins go through in these places.  I don’t know how you’d react, but the majority of dolphins get depressed and die within a few years (replacing dead dolphins in these places is a lucrative business).  Whoever told you they are better off in cages than at home in the open ocean is a bald-faced liar! If you don’t want to take my word for it, I’ll dig up some stories of people who have worked at these places.  I’m astounded that these people you talked to would lie so openly to someone who doesn’t know any better.  One day the truth about these so-called "Dolphin Rehab Centers" (that charge $100 for a chance to pet them in cages) will be exposed and it will be a worldwide scandal.

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Sounds like horseback riding would be a really terrible thing to do also.  Much less keeping a dog in the house.

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> Sounds like horseback riding would be a really terrible thing to do also. Much > less keeping a dog in the house.

Horses, dogs, cats, guinea pigs, etc. are domesticated pets, not wild animals.

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(REPLIED IN POSTING)

> Would you mind citing your sources?  I have been to the Dolphin Encounters > at Nassau and Cozumel.  In both cases the trainers told us of how much > longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean.  I can’t > recall > the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer. > This is such an audacious lie, I’m surprised they had the nerve to tell

you. Thanks for replying.  You sound knowledgeable on the subject.  I hope you don’t mind my asking a few more questions.  In Nassau, they have many dolphins.  Some of them, I’d say about a third to a half, are not "performers" at all, but more like "retired".  Several of them are famous for their roles in the movie Flipper and are now too old to do anything else.  I personally went and looked at them.  While I am NO expert on dolphins by any means, they all looked full grown and mature.  If anything, it appeared to me to be the truth of what they had said.  I had no reason to doubt their word as you do.  That is why I asked for additional info. > Their > explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress of > living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical attention > and required medical attention when needed.  I would appreciate any > information to the contrary. > The stress of living in the open ocean?!  Well–fed??  Ay yi yi–and you > bought all this?

Yes, I did.  Why wouldn’t I?  What they said is logical and makes sense to me.  I would be interested in more info supporting your claims though.  I enjoyed my experience with the dolphins and would NOT want to contribute to their abuse.  So, as I said earlier, I would be interested in any additional supporting information you can provide. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How’s this: bottlenose dolphins have a hunting range of miles and miles and > miles.  The ones caught off the coast of Florida for these pens are hunting > in either the Gulf Stream or the Gulf of Mexico, two of the richest fishing > grounds in the world.  They swim hundreds of miles a day, communicating with > not only their family members or their pods, but other pods as well, > sometimes with thousands of other dolphins at once.  They dive to catch > their food, sometimes down to a hundred meters down–all day and every day. > Animals do get sick in the wild, and if it’s a life-threatening illness they > die and their remains give nourishment to other organisms.  It’s the law of > nature and applies to all living beings from bacteria to humans.  But if > allowed to live their life in the natural way they’ve evolved over millions > of years, they flourish and prosper.  Dolphins were doing just fine for > millennia without preventive health care from humans, you know.

I agree 100%.  Dolphins do what dolphins do.  And I agree that dolphins can survive without man’s help.  But that’s not the topic of this conversation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dolphins in captivity are kept in pens, and even the largest of them are > nothing more than tanks, maybe thirty feet deep.  They are fed a restricted > diet–they don’t hunt, they are fed.  They didn’t ask to be captured and > imprisoned.  They are…oh hell.  I’ll put it another way. > Suppose one day while out shopping you’re kidnapped, stuck in a box for > days, then put in a large bare cubicle to live out the rest of your days. > You aren’t allowed to talk to anybody but your captors (who speak a > different language than you).  You are fed what they think is good for you. > You are compelled to learn and perform tricks and stunts with people riding > on your back, whether you want to or not.  You can never run again; there’s > not enough room in your cubicle.  You’ll never see your friends of family > ever again.  Meanwhile your captors charge people a lot of money so they can > come put their hands all over you and ride you like a pony (covering your > skin with their pathogens), all in a room with a five foot ceiling.

This arguement would make sense, and I would even agree with you, if I thought dolphins were the equals of man.  In my opinion, they aren’t. Dolphins don’t vote, they don’t pay taxes, they aren’t protected by a constitution of laws, they don’t create art, music, buildings, medicine. They don’t practise science, philosophy, religion or any of the higher sciences.  God gave man dominion over the earth and the animals, not vice versa.  Now, before anyone goes off on a tangent here, let me say that no one, especially me, believes in abusing any animal, whether it be dumb or intelligent, for any reason.  I’m even the kind of guy that feeds stray dogs and cats just because they look hungry and malnurished.  I have pets and love them dearly.  I have cried at their loss when "Mother Time" took her toll.  I love animals of every kind.  I even had a pet Boa Constrictor that lived a long healthy life.  I don’t hunt, not because I think it’s wrong, (I don’t), but because I just can’t kill an animal for sport.  If I were feeding a family it would be a different matter, but I’m not.  But despite my compassion for animals, I have never thought of them as anything other than an animal, not an equal to me.  Now granted, I have met some humans that I thought were closer to being an animal than human but that’s another story entirely.  :) Prior to these meetings, I had never met a dolphin before.  I had no real understanding of how beautiful they were.  Absolutely incredible animals. I’m sure we can agree on that.  My encounter with the dolphins has given me a new respect for dolphins.  How anyone could purposely abuse these creatures is beyond me.  If I have done a bad thing by supporting these so called Dolphin Rehab Centers, I would feel absolutely terrible.  So please present your supporting evidence that they are not being well taken care of. PLEASE! > How would you feel after enduring a year of this, with absolutely no chance > of escape or change?   Well, that’s what the dolphins go through in these > places.  I don’t know how you’d react, but the majority of dolphins get > depressed and die within a few years (replacing dead dolphins in these > places is a lucrative business).  Whoever told you they are better off in > cages than at home in the open ocean is a bald-faced liar!

Well, they may be liars, I won’t argue that.  But I would like to see some supporting eveidence. > If you don’t want to take my word for it, I’ll dig up some stories of people > who have worked at these places.  I’m astounded that these people you talked > to would lie so openly to someone who doesn’t know any better.  One day the > truth about these so-called "Dolphin Rehab Centers" (that charge $100 for a > chance to pet them in cages) will be exposed and it will be a worldwide > scandal.

It’s not just a matter of taking your word for it or not.  I don’t know you. I have no idea if you are a complete and total animal rights whacko whose paranoia prevents you from using logic and reason, or simply a fellow animal lover concerned for the dolphins well beings.  I will say this, that in both encounters that I have enjoyed, the dolphins were playful and seemed happy. They responded eagerly to commands and showed no fear of humans whatsoever. I know that if an animal is abused continuously it will often turn on it’s owner.  These dolphins could easily kill any human at any time if they so desired to.  Never at any time did I see, or hear about an aggressive dolphin injuring a human.  It seems to me that it would be quite foolish to get into a tank with dolphins that were very close to going "postal".  (If there are any postal workers reading this, forgive me. Yes, I am concerned that you might be correct. Please show me some supporting evidence! ChrisH

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> It’s not just a matter of taking your word for it or not.  I don’t know you. > I have no idea if you are a complete and total animal rights whacko whose > paranoia prevents you from using logic and reason, or simply a fellow animal > lover concerned for the dolphins well beings.

I tend to be on the skeptical side of claims like those made by Skip but in this case I am not. I have not made up my mind, but having observed the operations at Xcaret, Chankanaab and Bermuda,logic and reason tells me that the sole purpose of the dolphin discoverys is profit. Seeing the tourists lined up at Xcaret, and the dolphins and pens there, left a negative impression. It does not look as bad at Chankaanab and Bermuda since they are smaller operations. They don’t do it to protect dolphins or study dolphins. What the dolphins are doing is artifical. In order to eat they have to perform. It is not what dolphins do in nature. These operations exist only to make money on tourists. So to me the burden of proof is on the the dolphin adventure companies to prove that what they do is not bad for the dolphins. — Charles

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The treatment varies a great deal from one location to another. DolphinDiscovery does an excellent job of caring for and working with Dolphins.  Some of the other operations are more suspect.   There is always room for various viewpoints when animals are not free.  I have read of horses being mistreated in Mexico where horseback riding is available for cruise ship passengers.   Cats being skinned alive in Florida, and I have seen dogs deserted and starving in locked houses. DolphinDiscovery is nothing like this.  It is composed of people who are deeply for the Dolphins they work with.  These people too are critical of Dolphin operations that are in it solely for the money.   I have spent many hours with the people there on many trips.  They have told me of abusive phone calls from activists who do not know them personally or do not agree with having animals, fish, or Dolphins in any form of captivity.  People even picket Sea World. I strongly believe that DolphinDiscovery is a positive thing.  I have watched them for hours work with the Dolphins, and I see strong bonds, not like a person with a favorite dog or cat, develop.  It would have been difficult and pointless for these fine young people to lie over dinner and drinks on multiple trips there.  

Response:

> I strongly believe that DolphinDiscovery is a positive thing.  I have > watched them for hours work with the Dolphins, and I see strong > bonds, not like a person with a favorite dog or cat, develop.  It > would have been difficult and pointless for these fine young people > to lie over dinner and drinks on multiple trips there.  

Fine. But how is it that you have spent so many hours with them? Do you have a business relationship with them or a personal relationship with someone who works there? Are you part of some organization or watchdog group? Do you have any qualifications in marine biology? It would be good to know how objective an observer you are since you have had opportunity to observe which is beyond that of most people. — Charles

Response:

 I have only three comments, posted below…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (REPLIED IN POSTING) > > Would you mind citing your sources?  I have been to the Dolphin > Encounters > > at Nassau and Cozumel.  In both cases the trainers told us of how much > > longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean.  I can’t > recall > > the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer. > This is such an audacious lie, I’m surprised they had the nerve to tell > you. > Thanks for replying.  You sound knowledgeable on the subject.  I hope you > don’t mind my asking a few more questions.  In Nassau, they have many > dolphins.  Some of them, I’d say about a third to a half, are not > "performers" at all, but more like "retired".  Several of them are famous > for their roles in the movie Flipper and are now too old to do anything > else.  I personally went and looked at them.  While I am NO expert on > dolphins by any means, they all looked full grown and mature.  If anything, > it appeared to me to be the truth of what they had said.  I had no reason to > doubt their word as you do.  That is why I asked for additional info. > Their > > explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress > of > > living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical > attention > > and required medical attention when needed.  I would appreciate any > > information to the contrary. > The stress of living in the open ocean?!  Well–fed??  Ay yi yi–and you > bought all this? > Yes, I did.  Why wouldn’t I?  What they said is logical and makes sense to > me.  I would be interested in more info supporting your claims though.  I > enjoyed my experience with the dolphins and would NOT want to contribute to > their abuse.  So, as I said earlier, I would be interested in any additional > supporting information you can provide. > How’s this: bottlenose dolphins have a hunting range of miles and miles > and > miles.  The ones caught off the coast of Florida for these pens are > hunting > in either the Gulf Stream or the Gulf of Mexico, two of the richest > fishing > grounds in the world.  They swim hundreds of miles a day, communicating > with > not only their family members or their pods, but other pods as well, > sometimes with thousands of other dolphins at once.  They dive to catch > their food, sometimes down to a hundred meters down–all day and every > day. > Animals do get sick in the wild, and if it’s a life-threatening illness > they > die and their remains give nourishment to other organisms.  It’s the law > of > nature and applies to all living beings from bacteria to humans.  But if > allowed to live their life in the natural way they’ve evolved over > millions > of years, they flourish and prosper.  Dolphins were doing just fine for > millennia without preventive health care from humans, you know. > I agree 100%.  Dolphins do what dolphins do.  And I agree that dolphins can > survive without man’s help.  But that’s not the topic of this

conversation. I mentioned this aspect of your question (how dolphins in captivity receive better medical care in captivitythat those in the wild) because yoou brought it up.  That’s one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dolphins in captivity are kept in pens, and even the largest of them are > nothing more than tanks, maybe thirty feet deep.  They are fed a > restricted > diet–they don’t hunt, they are fed.  They didn’t ask to be captured and > imprisoned.  They are…oh hell.  I’ll put it another way. > Suppose one day while out shopping you’re kidnapped, stuck in a box for > days, then put in a large bare cubicle to live out the rest of your days. > You aren’t allowed to talk to anybody but your captors (who speak a > different language than you).  You are fed what they think is good for > you. > You are compelled to learn and perform tricks and stunts with people > riding > on your back, whether you want to or not.  You can never run again; > there’s > not enough room in your cubicle.  You’ll never see your friends of family > ever again.  Meanwhile your captors charge people a lot of money so they > can > come put their hands all over you and ride you like a pony (covering your > skin with their pathogens), all in a room with a five foot ceiling. > This arguement would make sense, and I would even agree with you, if I > thought dolphins were the equals of man.  In my opinion, they aren’t. > Dolphins don’t vote, they don’t pay taxes, they aren’t protected by a > constitution of laws, they don’t create art, music, buildings, medicine. > They don’t practise science, philosophy, religion or any of the higher > sciences.  God gave man dominion over the earth and the animals, not vice > versa.

The moment I read this statement from you, citing religious dogma to support your position, you lost me.  No way will I or anyone else gain ground with a person using religion as the basis of their opinion.  That’s two. There’s an old saying: Man considered himself on a higher plane than dolphins because Man has developed nuclear weapons and power, the internal combustion engine, political action committees, consumer-oriented societies, and bottles of water that cost $2, while all dolphins ever do is eat fish, swim, play, and make little dolphins.  Now, dolphins feel they are on a higher plane than Man for the exact same reasons.  That’s three. Oh, BTW, I’m not a member of any whacko environmental activist group (does the Sierra Club count as a buncha whackos?).  But before I took on the careers of a full-time musician and writer, I was studying to be a marine biologist.  Okay, that’s one more than I said I had.  Oops.

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I hate to admit this, but I’ve never told TheDog about Christmas. *hangs head in shame* Don’t get me wrong – he’s spoiled rotten. He has a denim doggie sofa, an animal print doggie chair, 3 sheepskin puffy beds, some blankies from grandma, and several "babies" that he herds around the house. He has adopted several socks and even a washcloth. He’s just as happy with a celophane-windowed envelope as he is with treats. He thinks bread and lettuce are foods of the gods. He has an IQ of about 6, but a heart of gold. :^)

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I think with all that stuff, Santa will forgive you for not putting up a stocking! LOL! With hope and heart, Kathleen — The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say.   ~ J.R.R. : I hate to admit this, but I’ve never told TheDog about Christmas. : *hangs head in shame* : : Don’t get me wrong – he’s spoiled rotten. He has a denim doggie sofa, : an animal print doggie chair, 3 sheepskin puffy beds, some blankies : from grandma, and several "babies" that he herds around the house. He : has adopted several socks and even a washcloth. He’s just as happy : with a celophane-windowed envelope as he is with treats. He thinks : bread and lettuce are foods of the gods. : : He has an IQ of about 6, but a heart of gold. :^)

Response:

>I think with all that stuff, Santa will forgive you for not putting up >a stocking! >LOL! >With hope and heart, >Kathleen

He has a stocking that goes on the tree. He just doesn’t know about it. shhhhh…

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: >I think with all that stuff, Santa will forgive you for not putting up : >a stocking! : >LOL! : >With hope and heart, : >Kathleen : : He has a stocking that goes on the tree. He just doesn’t know about : it. : shhhhh… Ahhhh did you say it was a Cattledog?  If so, you just blew it. I know for a fact mine gets online at night and reads the stuff I write about her. So sorry! With hope and heart, Kathleen

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Today I bought  my dog a soft red and white striped collar with jingle bells sewn on.  Pretty girl!!!  I wish I had a camera!!!! As some of you know, Sweetie is a rescue dog who has had several problems since we got her in March.  She has never played with toys. Well, last month we got a Black Lab Pup (4mo now) who is teaching Sweetie to play!  So I got them a stocking, and bought toys.  While I was wrapping yesterday, I threw a new toy down (Pepper the Lab goes to work with Steve every day so was not here).  Sweetie pounced upon the toy and killed the squeaker in it immediately.  Good dog!!!!!  Pepper finished it off when she came home, by playing tug of war with my 7yo. *sigh* Bought a new batch today.  $30 for dogfood, $30 for toys. What did you get your pet for Christmas? With hope and heart, Kathleen — The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say.   ~ J.R.R.

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Woo Hoo Kathleen! I sure do remember you being so upset about Sweetie…good for you for giving her the benefit of the doubt and persevering.. Sounds like you have made a breakthrough…I am sooo glad! I got our cats a bag of treats each – their daddy spoils them rotten so they have all the toys in the world already! With woofs and whines Meows and madness! Paula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Today I bought  my dog a soft red and white striped collar with jingle > bells sewn on.  Pretty girl!!!  I wish I had a camera!!!! > As some of you know, Sweetie is a rescue dog who has had several > problems since we got her in March.  She has never played with toys. > Well, last month we got a Black Lab Pup (4mo now) who is teaching > Sweetie to play!  So I got them a stocking, and bought toys.  While I > was wrapping yesterday, I threw a new toy down (Pepper the Lab goes to > work with Steve every day so was not here).  Sweetie pounced upon the > toy and killed the squeaker in it immediately.  Good dog!!!!!  Pepper > finished it off when she came home, by playing tug of war with my 7yo. > *sigh* > Bought a new batch today.  $30 for dogfood, $30 for toys. > What did you get your pet for Christmas? > With hope and heart, > Kathleen > — > The Road goes ever on and on > Down from the door where it began. > Now far ahead the Road has gone, > And I must follow, if I can, > Pursuing it with eager feet, > Until it joins some larger way > Where many paths and errands meet. > And whither then? I cannot say. >   ~ J.R.R.

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Hey Kathleen, Nice topic… I bought my Maisy two new bowls complete with her name on it.  And I also bought her a new rope (tug toy) and the kids bought her a stuffed toy.  She ripped apart her old rope just before Thanksgiving and then tore her stuffed toy apart last week.  I think we need to play with her a bit more outside, huh?  Either that or we need to get some livestock for her to herd!  lol Joy owned by a crazy Aussie dog since 1999

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Today I bought  my dog a soft red and white striped collar with jingle > bells sewn on.  Pretty girl!!!  I wish I had a camera!!!! > As some of you know, Sweetie is a rescue dog who has had several > problems since we got her in March.  She has never played with toys. > Well, last month we got a Black Lab Pup (4mo now) who is teaching > Sweetie to play!  So I got them a stocking, and bought toys.  While I > was wrapping yesterday, I threw a new toy down (Pepper the Lab goes to > work with Steve every day so was not here).  Sweetie pounced upon the > toy and killed the squeaker in it immediately.  Good dog!!!!!  Pepper > finished it off when she came home, by playing tug of war with my 7yo. > *sigh* > Bought a new batch today.  $30 for dogfood, $30 for toys. > What did you get your pet for Christmas? > With hope and heart, > Kathleen > — > The Road goes ever on and on > Down from the door where it began. > Now far ahead the Road has gone, > And I must follow, if I can, > Pursuing it with eager feet, > Until it joins some larger way > Where many paths and errands meet. > And whither then? I cannot say. >   ~ J.R.R.

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Sweetie is doing most awesome!  She still runs off occasionally if you don’t pay attention when you are outside with her (the last time it was dark out in the morning and the next thing I knew she was GONE) but for the most part will come back when I say something to her.  She is learning to play with toys, and her and Pepper have a good time harrassing each other with and without the toys.  She ALWAYS comes when we call her in the house, and she is learning to be loved on. You know, she never really liked to be cuddled before.  I am cuddling! Will you save the cat treats until Christmas then? With hope and heart, Kathleen : Woo Hoo Kathleen! I sure do remember you being so upset about Sweetie…good : for you for giving her the benefit of the doubt and persevering.. Sounds : like you have made a breakthrough…I am sooo glad! : : I got our cats a bag of treats each – their daddy spoils them rotten so they : have all the toys in the world already! : : With woofs and whines : Meows and madness! : Paula : : > Today I bought  my dog a soft red and white striped collar with jingle : > bells sewn on.  Pretty girl!!!  I wish I had a camera!!!! : > : > As some of you know, Sweetie is a rescue dog who has had several : > problems since we got her in March.  She has never played with toys. : > Well, last month we got a Black Lab Pup (4mo now) who is teaching : > Sweetie to play!  So I got them a stocking, and bought toys. While I : > was wrapping yesterday, I threw a new toy down (Pepper the Lab goes to : > work with Steve every day so was not here).  Sweetie pounced upon the : > toy and killed the squeaker in it immediately.  Good dog!!!!! Pepper : > finished it off when she came home, by playing tug of war with my 7yo. : > *sigh* : > : > Bought a new batch today.  $30 for dogfood, $30 for toys. : > What did you get your pet for Christmas? : > With hope and heart, : > Kathleen : > : > — : > The Road goes ever on and on : > Down from the door where it began. : > Now far ahead the Road has gone, : > And I must follow, if I can, : > Pursuing it with eager feet, : > Until it joins some larger way : > Where many paths and errands meet. : > And whither then? I cannot say. : >   ~ J.R.R. : > : > : :

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> Today I bought  my dog a soft red and white striped collar with jingle > bells sewn on…

Cool topic!  I am an animal lover myself.  I have two Boxers, a Miniature Poodle, a Tuxedo cat and my absolute pride and joy, my purebred blue British Shorthair! I buy tons of stuff for my pets all year long.  A wonderful day for me is a day at Petco!  I plan to buy new dog beds for the dogs at Christmas and a kitty climbing tower for the cats (should be able to do this, now that I am saving money by NOT SMOKING!). Right now, I am taking advantage of the fact that I have dogs.  My big Boxers are getting their nightly workout of a 1 1/2 mile walk.  It takes my mind off of smoking and I figure I am advancing my health and theirs at the same time!  Cindy

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I bought Casper (my Maltese) a new red sweater!  He just loves his burgundy & black Argyle one, so I bought him a bright red (with white & black designs) to brighten him up for Christmas!  He loves it now, too!  I bought my older son & his GF’s dachshund a sweater and my younger son & his GF’s Yorkie food & water bowls.  Unfortunately, I can’t buy any food treats for Casper (his tummy is too sensitive) but he has a new squeakie toy, too! He may be 10 years old but he *loves* his toys! *hugs* BinnieBee – OF+

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Today I bought  my dog a soft red and white striped collar with jingle > bells sewn on.  Pretty girl!!!  I wish I had a camera!!!! > As some of you know, Sweetie is a rescue dog who has had several > problems since we got her in March.  She has never played with toys. > Well, last month we got a Black Lab Pup (4mo now) who is teaching > Sweetie to play!  So I got them a stocking, and bought toys.  While I > was wrapping yesterday, I threw a new toy down (Pepper the Lab goes to > work with Steve every day so was not here).  Sweetie pounced upon the > toy and killed the squeaker in it immediately.  Good dog!!!!!  Pepper > finished it off when she came home, by playing tug of war with my 7yo. > *sigh* > Bought a new batch today.  $30 for dogfood, $30 for toys. > What did you get your pet for Christmas? > With hope and heart, > Kathleen > — > The Road goes ever on and on > Down from the door where it began. > Now far ahead the Road has gone, > And I must follow, if I can, > Pursuing it with eager feet, > Until it joins some larger way > Where many paths and errands meet. > And whither then? I cannot say. >   ~ J.R.R.

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Strap in for wild night and Don’t be surprised if ya wake up somewhere crazy Bz

: ohhh right : goes by the name ‘rohypnol’ doesnt it? : hehehehe : yeah… recreational GHP use, that could be an interesting one lol : m~ :

: : >It is the date rape drug……. : > : >Makes for an interesting and puzzling night!!! : > : >;-) : > : >Bz : >

: >: whats GHP? : >: : >: i find about 5-10mg of valium and a bottle of wine does me nicely : >: depending on tolerance levels : >: dont anyone dare tell my doc that or she’ll never give me any more : >: : >: hehehehehe : >: : >: but i prefer weed now anyhow especially really good skunk : >: it doesnt give you a hangover : >: : >: m~ : >:

: >: : >: >GHP? : >: > : >: >By far the best : >: > : >: >Bz : >: > : >: >: Which one provides the best buzz when mixed with a bit of alcohol? : >: >: Group?? : >: >: : >: >: : >: >: : >: >: > Anxiolytics : >: >: > : >: >: > These drugs are used to relieve distress of anxiety, relax muscles, : >and : >: >: produce sedation. : >: >: > They should be used for short periods of time because they are : >: >potentially : >: >: addictive and : >: >: > may unpredictably add to the effects of alcohol. The most commonly : >used : >: >: anxiolytic : >: >: > medications are: : >: >: > : >: >: > Generic Name Brand Name : >: >: > Alprazolam Xanax : >: >: > Bromazepam Lectopam : >: >: > Chlordiazepoxide Librium : >: >: > Clonazepam Klonopin : >: >: > Diazepam Valium : >: >: > Flurazepam Dalmane : >: >: > Lorazepam Ativan : >: >: > Oxazepam Serax : >: >: > Temazepem Restoril : >: >: > Triazolam Halcion : >: >: > : >: >: > Side effects can be dizziness, drowsiness, loss of muscle : >coordination, : >: >: blurred vision, : >: >: > agitation, decreased memory, increased appetite, and diarrhea. : >: >: Nevertheless, there is a : >: >: > place for anxiolytics when a person is receiving regular mental : >health : >: >: care. : >: >: > : >: >: > Flurazepam, temazepam, and triazolam are not usually used as : >: >anxiolytics; : >: >: instead, they : >: >: > are prescribed to induce sleep. : >: >: > : >: >: > : >: >: > — : >: >: > I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser." : >: >: >                      -Mother Jones : >: >: >

> I live in an apartment so they cannot be coming in from the outside.

Get your head out of your ass long enough to call an exterminator.

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>I thought about a vacuum cleaner and then toss the bag but then I will >have to buy 100 bags so evrytime I catch a live one, I have to toss the bag. >Thanx for the help!

Just remember… Bugs are people too.

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bags so evrytime I catch a live one, I have to toss   the bag.    Thanx for the help!   Gather some in a zip lock bag. When you see a pest control person about ask him what it is. That way by knowing what you are dealing with,you will be able to know how to control them. — Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, …..lying in hospitals dying of nothing. Lar.  (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!

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>Take a look around the foundation of the home and see if >you find them there. If you do they will be an outside >pest coming in.

I live in an apartment so they cannot be coming in from the outside. I first noticed them around the perimeter of the carpet in the bedroom. Actually my cats noticed them and then I saw them and now they are everywhere. Hell I am even getting rid of all my rolled change as I will bring them to the bank and if any of them are in there, they can deal with it. >If they >are maggots there is a food source they have consumed >and will be pupating to a fly, so they won’t be around >much longer.

They aren’t maggots. I do not know what they are but they aren’t maggots. I have since found them in boxes filld with records so I am donationg nearly everything to the Salvation Army. In the boxes, they are mostly dead already but I still do not want to take them with me. The live ones, I will use RAID although I thought about a vacuum cleaner and then toss the bag but then I will have to buy 100 bags so evrytime I catch a live one, I have to toss the bag. Thanx for the help!

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They aren’t flea larvae. I have had cats all my life but have never seen them before. I also do not have any flying insects. They are hairless. They grow to about 1/2-3/4 inch and curl up when threatened. I do not have a digital camera so I cannot take a picture of them. I am donating so much stuff including about 400 vinyl albums because I just do not want to chance taking them with me. They do not bite. I thought they were only carpet worms but I am finding them on the counter tops and the bare floor. I think they may be coming through the floor as well as the wall molding. I have not noticed them at all on any of my cats so they are not coming from them. If they are maggots, where did they come from? Again, will RAID get rid of them? I will saturate everything with it if it get rid of them making sure it does not harm my cats. I am at a total loss. I don’t know where they came from nor what to do about them. I just know they will be moving with me. Thanx for your help!!!!!!

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 . I have not noticed them at all on any of my cats  so they are not coming from them. If they are maggots, where did they come  from? Again, will RAID get rid of them? I will saturate everything with it if  it get rid of them making sure it does not harm my cats. I am at a total loss.  I don’t know where they came from nor what to do about them. I just know they  will be moving with me.     Take a look around the foundation of the home and see if you find them there. If you do they will be an outside pest coming in. If the raid you have contains .1% cypermethrin, it will have a bit of a residual and repellant action so treating areas of entry may help. If you are attacking the individual insects with the raid you will be as effective with a vacuum cleaner. If they are maggots there is a food source they have consumed and will be pupating to a fly, so they won’t be around much longer. — Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, …..lying in hospitals dying of nothing. Lar.  (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!

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Judging from your pseudonym, you like cats.  Do you have any?  If so, the carpet worms may well be flea larvae. dadiOH

| I have started finding these little worm type bugs in the carpet. I first | noticed them in the carpet but now they are everywhere even on the bare wood | floor. They are orange-ish in color. They start off as tiny and grow quickly. | They are able to climb on boxes. I am moving and I am afraid I am taking them | with me. Has anyone ever seen them and know how to get rid of them? The | exterminator was a bust. I am going to try Raid but I do not expect that to | work. What are they and what do I do? | Can you please email me the responses and ASAP as I am moving in 2 weeks and | shutting down in that time. | Thank you for your help!

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cats,    Catch a few of these bugs and call your ag extension service. They’ll probably be able to advise you. Dave M.

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 I have started finding these little worm type bugs in the carpet. I first  noticed them in the carpet but now they are everywhere even on the bare wood  floor. They are orange-ish in color. They start off as tiny and grow quickly.  They are able to climb on boxes. I am moving and I am afraid I am taking them  with me. Has anyone ever seen them and know how to get rid of them? The  exterminator was a bust. I am going to try Raid but I do not expect that to  work. What are they and what do I do?  Can you please email me the responses and ASAP as I am moving in 2 weeks and  shutting down in that time.  Thank you for your help!   You may try a  search on Maggots and see if what you are seeing are shaped like them. Depending on what type of fly they come from may determine the source. Larvae from indian meal moths have been described as creamy/pinkish tint, but if you have many larvae you should see the small moths flying about. A better description may also help, do you see the legs, are the worms smooth or furry, etc. — Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, …..lying in hospitals dying of nothing. Lar.  (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!

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I have started finding these little worm type bugs in the carpet. I first noticed them in the carpet but now they are everywhere even on the bare wood floor. They are orange-ish in color. They start off as tiny and grow quickly. They are able to climb on boxes. I am moving and I am afraid I am taking them with me. Has anyone ever seen them and know how to get rid of them? The exterminator was a bust. I am going to try Raid but I do not expect that to work. What are they and what do I do? Can you please email me the responses and ASAP as I am moving in 2 weeks and shutting down in that time. Thank you for your help!

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It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak for a biopsy. After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?} When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t think I was ever missing any. Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to hold her. I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. View: Complete Thread (97 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav <<<SNIP>>> BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. Stacy Scott slscott at sirius dot com (reformat as necessary) How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I obliged him. Twonky….. kiddush Ha~Shem alt.paranormal.crop-circles Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the cabinet. I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go figure!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and > make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in > there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I > thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when > no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against > the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped > eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to > the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and > found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak > for a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in > the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and > drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking > walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal > size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. > I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she > ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would > jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is > it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?}

I’m very sorry.  Yes, it is true. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch > shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. > Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never > noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before > she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was ever missing any. > Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she > getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in > a towel to hold her. > I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And > found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> > BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other > symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another > blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will > discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. > Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) > How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful > at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her > down!’ And I obliged him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem > alt.paranormal.crop-circles

Hard to know for sure, I have a vet who I think tries to help make that decision a little easier, he helped me with it with a very sick cat recently.  And then another cat I have now who was very sick, I chose to persue treatment. He *still* says he thought putting him down would have been kinder. *shrugs*  He doesn’t know my cat like I do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old > black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except > no pooping in the cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots > they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for > Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t > let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya > was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is > a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, > so I rejected it. > The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She > just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help > for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. > Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at > tuna! Go figure!

Congrats on Maya! You can’t second guess yourself on what went wrong with Samantha, you can only do what you know, and if you don’t know, ask. That’s all you can do.  And enjoy, and offer a quality of life that makes their time with you wonderful – and your time with them.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a > deep > guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She > would just > look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats > outside. I found > she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor > cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the > walls of the > litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was > becoming > very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the > tests, X-rays and > all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too > weak for > a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet > gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice > her to eat. > She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and > repeat her > heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice > normal size. > She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have > to pick her up > to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. > When she > wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and > recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t > show the > pain they’re in?} >  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ > cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the > litter box. > I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in > there. > Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a > long while > before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was > ever missing any. >  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting > better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to > hold her. >  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> >  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I > will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and > possibly > another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater > depth with my vets. >  Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) >  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all > in > trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I > obliged > him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem >  alt.paranormal.crop-circles >  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & > white > domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the > cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they > normally > give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me > do it. > When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her > distemper > shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it > might be to calm > Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. >  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just > about threw > Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took > the box and > Maya, and went to get help. >  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go > figure! > Hi Twonky,

>     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner > and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. > Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or > http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Thanks Bill. It does help. A damn virus! It sure sounds {and looks} like what Sam had. I wonder why the Vet didn’t say anything? The virus lives for 8 days on surfaces. Clothes. Furniture…etc…etc. Now I’m worried about Maya. I got her about two weeks after Sam was put down. I cleaned up, but I didn’t spray my place with bleach. I left some of Sam’s things right where they were. Maya takes most of the places around the condo that Sam used, to ‘relax.’ And new ones she found. Now I know what Stacy was going through. It sucks! When Sam was sick she would go to a certain corner in the kitchen, and just lay there. I cleaned the kitchen floor and base board with a commercial disinfectant after Sam was euthanized. And before of course. But I’m single. I don’t do it every day, When I got Maya. She came out of the box and went crazy looking for Sam. To make a long story short. That corner of the kitchen is where Maya spends a lot of time. Especially when I’m in there. When I chase Maya around after she ambushes me, she runs right for that corner, rolls over on her back, left, right, left, right…. and I go over and "get her belly!" Only if her claws are trimmed. She beats me up and even hisses. She runs away. And comes right back and does it again. She’s a young cat. That won’t last long. But I think that corner will. Something strange about that ‘corner in the kitchen.’ "Corner In the Kitchen!" It sounds like it could be a book. ;( Thanks again Bill.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a > deep > guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She > would just > look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats > outside. I found > she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor > cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the > walls of the > litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was > becoming > very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the > tests, X-rays and > all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too > weak for > a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet > gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice > her to eat. > She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and > repeat her > heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice > normal size. > She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have > to pick her up > to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. > When she > wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and > recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t > show the > pain they’re in?} >  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ > cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the > litter box. > I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in > there. > Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a > long while > before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was > ever missing any. >  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting > better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to > hold her. >  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> >  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms. I > will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and > possibly > another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater > depth with my vets. >  Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) >  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all > in > trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I > obliged > him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem >  alt.paranormal.crop-circles >  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & > white > domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the > cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they > normally > give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me > do it. > When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her > distemper > shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it > might be to calm > Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. >  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just > about threw > Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took > the box and > Maya, and went to get help. >  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go > figure! > Hi Twonky, >     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner > and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. > Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or > http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Response:

 It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak for a biopsy. After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?}  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t think I was ever missing any.  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to hold her.  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. View: Complete Thread (97 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav <<<SNIP>>>  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets.  Stacy Scott slscott at sirius dot com (reformat as necessary)  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I obliged him. Twonky….. kiddush Ha~Shem  alt.paranormal.crop-circles  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the cabinet. I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it.  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help.  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go figure! Hi Twonky,     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and > make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in > there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I > thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when > no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against > the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped > eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to > the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and > found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak > for a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in > the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and > drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking > walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal > size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. > I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she > ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would > jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is > it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?} > I’m very sorry.  Yes, it is true.

So…she could have really been hurting. I didn’t want to see that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch > shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. > Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never > noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before > she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was ever missing any. > Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she > getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in > a towel to hold her. > I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And > found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> > BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other > symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another > blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will > discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. > Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) > How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful > at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her > down!’ And I obliged him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem > alt.paranormal.crop-circles > Hard to know for sure, I have a vet who I think tries to help make that > decision a little easier, he helped me with it with a very sick cat > recently.  And then another cat I have now who was very sick, I chose to > persue treatment. He *still* says he thought putting him down would have > been kinder. *shrugs*  He doesn’t know my cat like I do.

A co-worker, Bill, has a 17 year old cat. It was suppose to die years ago when diagnosed with a kidney problem.. Hasn’t got a tooth in its mouth. This cat has more than nine lives. It has gone through sickness where he thought it would die on the spot. But it keeps coming back. Right now ‘Blacky’ has trouble with his hind legs. But  eating and walking. Following Bill around. And stool so strong, Bill says it drives him out of the house. I said to him; "Too bad I didn’t let Sam just work it out. If she beat it, then we could sit around and talk about our sick cats, and their remarkable recoveries." I’d be interested to know what Stacy’s cat had/has. And how everything turned out. The post was written in 1999. I wonder how Twonky did. And how she did it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old > black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except > no pooping in the cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots > they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for > Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t > let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya > was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is > a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, > so I rejected it. > The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She > just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help > for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. > Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at > tuna! Go figure! > Congrats on Maya! You can’t second guess yourself on what went wrong with > Samantha, you can only do what you know, and if you don’t know, ask. That’s > all you can do.  And enjoy, and offer a quality of life that makes their > time with you wonderful – and your time with them.

I try to. Thanks for the support Sheryl…. Twonky… kiddush Ha~Shem

Response:

It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak for a biopsy. After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?} When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t think I was ever missing any. Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to hold her. I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. View: Complete Thread (97 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav <<<SNIP>>> BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. Stacy Scott slscott at sirius dot com (reformat as necessary) How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I obliged him. Twonky….. kiddush Ha~Shem alt.paranormal.crop-circles Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the cabinet. I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go figure!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and > make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in > there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I > thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when > no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against > the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped > eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to > the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and > found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak > for a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in > the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and > drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking > walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal > size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. > I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she > ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would > jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is > it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?}

I’m very sorry.  Yes, it is true. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch > shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. > Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never > noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before > she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was ever missing any. > Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she > getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in > a towel to hold her. > I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And > found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> > BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other > symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another > blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will > discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. > Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) > How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful > at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her > down!’ And I obliged him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem > alt.paranormal.crop-circles

Hard to know for sure, I have a vet who I think tries to help make that decision a little easier, he helped me with it with a very sick cat recently.  And then another cat I have now who was very sick, I chose to persue treatment. He *still* says he thought putting him down would have been kinder. *shrugs*  He doesn’t know my cat like I do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old > black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except > no pooping in the cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots > they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for > Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t > let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya > was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is > a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, > so I rejected it. > The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She > just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help > for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. > Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at > tuna! Go figure!

Congrats on Maya! You can’t second guess yourself on what went wrong with Samantha, you can only do what you know, and if you don’t know, ask. That’s all you can do.  And enjoy, and offer a quality of life that makes their time with you wonderful – and your time with them.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a > deep > guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She > would just > look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats > outside. I found > she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor > cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the > walls of the > litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was > becoming > very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the > tests, X-rays and > all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too > weak for > a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet > gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice > her to eat. > She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and > repeat her > heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice > normal size. > She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have > to pick her up > to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. > When she > wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and > recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t > show the > pain they’re in?} >  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ > cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the > litter box. > I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in > there. > Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a > long while > before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was > ever missing any. >  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting > better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to > hold her. >  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> >  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I > will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and > possibly > another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater > depth with my vets. >  Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) >  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all > in > trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I > obliged > him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem >  alt.paranormal.crop-circles >  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & > white > domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the > cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they > normally > give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me > do it. > When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her > distemper > shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it > might be to calm > Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. >  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just > about threw > Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took > the box and > Maya, and went to get help. >  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go > figure! > Hi Twonky,

>     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner > and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. > Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or > http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Thanks Bill. It does help. A damn virus! It sure sounds {and looks} like what Sam had. I wonder why the Vet didn’t say anything? The virus lives for 8 days on surfaces. Clothes. Furniture…etc…etc. Now I’m worried about Maya. I got her about two weeks after Sam was put down. I cleaned up, but I didn’t spray my place with bleach. I left some of Sam’s things right where they were. Maya takes most of the places around the condo that Sam used, to ‘relax.’ And new ones she found. Now I know what Stacy was going through. It sucks! When Sam was sick she would go to a certain corner in the kitchen, and just lay there. I cleaned the kitchen floor and base board with a commercial disinfectant after Sam was euthanized. And before of course. But I’m single. I don’t do it every day, When I got Maya. She came out of the box and went crazy looking for Sam. To make a long story short. That corner of the kitchen is where Maya spends a lot of time. Especially when I’m in there. When I chase Maya around after she ambushes me, she runs right for that corner, rolls over on her back, left, right, left, right…. and I go over and "get her belly!" Only if her claws are trimmed. She beats me up and even hisses. She runs away. And comes right back and does it again. She’s a young cat. That won’t last long. But I think that corner will. Something strange about that ‘corner in the kitchen.’ "Corner In the Kitchen!" It sounds like it could be a book. ;( Thanks again Bill.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a > deep > guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She > would just > look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats > outside. I found > she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor > cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the > walls of the > litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was > becoming > very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the > tests, X-rays and > all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too > weak for > a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet > gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice > her to eat. > She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and > repeat her > heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice > normal size. > She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have > to pick her up > to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. > When she > wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and > recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t > show the > pain they’re in?} >  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ > cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the > litter box. > I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in > there. > Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a > long while > before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was > ever missing any. >  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting > better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to > hold her. >  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> >  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms. I > will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and > possibly > another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater > depth with my vets. >  Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) >  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all > in > trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I > obliged > him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem >  alt.paranormal.crop-circles >  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & > white > domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the > cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they > normally > give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me > do it. > When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her > distemper > shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it > might be to calm > Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. >  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just > about threw > Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took > the box and > Maya, and went to get help. >  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go > figure! > Hi Twonky, >     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner > and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. > Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or > http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Response:

 It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak for a biopsy. After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?}  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t think I was ever missing any.  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to hold her.  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. View: Complete Thread (97 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav <<<SNIP>>>  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets.  Stacy Scott slscott at sirius dot com (reformat as necessary)  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I obliged him. Twonky….. kiddush Ha~Shem  alt.paranormal.crop-circles  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the cabinet. I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it.  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help.  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go figure! Hi Twonky,     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and > make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in > there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I > thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when > no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against > the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped > eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to > the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and > found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak > for a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in > the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and > drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking > walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal > size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. > I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she > ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would > jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is > it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?} > I’m very sorry.  Yes, it is true.

So…she could have really been hurting. I didn’t want to see that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch > shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. > Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never > noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before > she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was ever missing any. > Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she > getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in > a towel to hold her. > I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And > found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> > BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other > symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another > blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will > discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. > Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) > How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful > at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her > down!’ And I obliged him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem > alt.paranormal.crop-circles > Hard to know for sure, I have a vet who I think tries to help make that > decision a little easier, he helped me with it with a very sick cat > recently.  And then another cat I have now who was very sick, I chose to > persue treatment. He *still* says he thought putting him down would have > been kinder. *shrugs*  He doesn’t know my cat like I do.

A co-worker, Bill, has a 17 year old cat. It was suppose to die years ago when diagnosed with a kidney problem.. Hasn’t got a tooth in its mouth. This cat has more than nine lives. It has gone through sickness where he thought it would die on the spot. But it keeps coming back. Right now ‘Blacky’ has trouble with his hind legs. But  eating and walking. Following Bill around. And stool so strong, Bill says it drives him out of the house. I said to him; "Too bad I didn’t let Sam just work it out. If she beat it, then we could sit around and talk about our sick cats, and their remarkable recoveries." I’d be interested to know what Stacy’s cat had/has. And how everything turned out. The post was written in 1999. I wonder how Twonky did. And how she did it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old > black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except > no pooping in the cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots > they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for > Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t > let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya > was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is > a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, > so I rejected it. > The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She > just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help > for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. > Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at > tuna! Go figure! > Congrats on Maya! You can’t second guess yourself on what went wrong with > Samantha, you can only do what you know, and if you don’t know, ask. That’s > all you can do.  And enjoy, and offer a quality of life that makes their > time with you wonderful – and your time with them.

I try to. Thanks for the support Sheryl…. Twonky… kiddush Ha~Shem

Response:

It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak for a biopsy. After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?} When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t think I was ever missing any. Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to hold her. I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. View: Complete Thread (97 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav <<<SNIP>>> BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. Stacy Scott slscott at sirius dot com (reformat as necessary) How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I obliged him. Twonky….. kiddush Ha~Shem alt.paranormal.crop-circles Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the cabinet. I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go figure!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and > make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in > there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I > thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when > no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against > the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped > eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to > the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and > found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak > for a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in > the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and > drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking > walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal > size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. > I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she > ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would > jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is > it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?}

I’m very sorry.  Yes, it is true. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch > shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. > Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never > noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before > she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was ever missing any. > Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she > getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in > a towel to hold her. > I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And > found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> > BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other > symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another > blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will > discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. > Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) > How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful > at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her > down!’ And I obliged him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem > alt.paranormal.crop-circles

Hard to know for sure, I have a vet who I think tries to help make that decision a little easier, he helped me with it with a very sick cat recently.  And then another cat I have now who was very sick, I chose to persue treatment. He *still* says he thought putting him down would have been kinder. *shrugs*  He doesn’t know my cat like I do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old > black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except > no pooping in the cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots > they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for > Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t > let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya > was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is > a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, > so I rejected it. > The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She > just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help > for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. > Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at > tuna! Go figure!

Congrats on Maya! You can’t second guess yourself on what went wrong with Samantha, you can only do what you know, and if you don’t know, ask. That’s all you can do.  And enjoy, and offer a quality of life that makes their time with you wonderful – and your time with them.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a > deep > guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She > would just > look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats > outside. I found > she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor > cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the > walls of the > litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was > becoming > very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the > tests, X-rays and > all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too > weak for > a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet > gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice > her to eat. > She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and > repeat her > heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice > normal size. > She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have > to pick her up > to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. > When she > wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and > recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t > show the > pain they’re in?} >  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ > cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the > litter box. > I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in > there. > Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a > long while > before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was > ever missing any. >  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting > better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to > hold her. >  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> >  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I > will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and > possibly > another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater > depth with my vets. >  Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) >  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all > in > trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I > obliged > him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem >  alt.paranormal.crop-circles >  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & > white > domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the > cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they > normally > give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me > do it. > When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her > distemper > shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it > might be to calm > Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. >  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just > about threw > Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took > the box and > Maya, and went to get help. >  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go > figure! > Hi Twonky,

>     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner > and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. > Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or > http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Thanks Bill. It does help. A damn virus! It sure sounds {and looks} like what Sam had. I wonder why the Vet didn’t say anything? The virus lives for 8 days on surfaces. Clothes. Furniture…etc…etc. Now I’m worried about Maya. I got her about two weeks after Sam was put down. I cleaned up, but I didn’t spray my place with bleach. I left some of Sam’s things right where they were. Maya takes most of the places around the condo that Sam used, to ‘relax.’ And new ones she found. Now I know what Stacy was going through. It sucks! When Sam was sick she would go to a certain corner in the kitchen, and just lay there. I cleaned the kitchen floor and base board with a commercial disinfectant after Sam was euthanized. And before of course. But I’m single. I don’t do it every day, When I got Maya. She came out of the box and went crazy looking for Sam. To make a long story short. That corner of the kitchen is where Maya spends a lot of time. Especially when I’m in there. When I chase Maya around after she ambushes me, she runs right for that corner, rolls over on her back, left, right, left, right…. and I go over and "get her belly!" Only if her claws are trimmed. She beats me up and even hisses. She runs away. And comes right back and does it again. She’s a young cat. That won’t last long. But I think that corner will. Something strange about that ‘corner in the kitchen.’ "Corner In the Kitchen!" It sounds like it could be a book. ;( Thanks again Bill.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a > deep > guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She > would just > look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats > outside. I found > she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor > cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the > walls of the > litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was > becoming > very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the > tests, X-rays and > all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too > weak for > a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet > gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice > her to eat. > She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and > repeat her > heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice > normal size. > She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have > to pick her up > to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. > When she > wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and > recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t > show the > pain they’re in?} >  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ > cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the > litter box. > I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in > there. > Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a > long while > before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was > ever missing any. >  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting > better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to > hold her. >  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> >  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms. I > will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and > possibly > another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater > depth with my vets. >  Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) >  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all > in > trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I > obliged > him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem >  alt.paranormal.crop-circles >  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & > white > domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the > cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they > normally > give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me > do it. > When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her > distemper > shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it > might be to calm > Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it. >  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just > about threw > Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took > the box and > Maya, and went to get help. >  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go > figure! > Hi Twonky, >     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner > and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. > Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or > http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Response:

 It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak for a biopsy. After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would jump, walk a few steps and drop. The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?}  When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t think I was ever missing any.  Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in a towel to hold her.  I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And found…. View: Complete Thread (97 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav <<<SNIP>>>  BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets.  Stacy Scott slscott at sirius dot com (reformat as necessary)  How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her down!’ And I obliged him. Twonky….. kiddush Ha~Shem  alt.paranormal.crop-circles  Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except no pooping in the cabinet. I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for Maya…because it’s the law. I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, so I rejected it.  The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help.  Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at tuna! Go figure! Hi Twonky,     I don’t know if these links will be of any help, but I am a cat owner and your story had me concerned enough to go looking on Google for answers. Hope these help.   http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/fip.html or http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/fd.html  Bill Mitkelson

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It started when she would walk into the bedroom. She would stop and > make a deep guttural sound. I was in the living room and would run in > there to see. She would just look up at me, and continue on. I > thought she was hearing other cats outside. I found she did it when > no cats were outside. And began to worry. Sam was an indoor cat for > the last three years of her life. She was a black & white domestic. > I started to see blood in the litter box. She would ‘back up’ against > the walls of the litter box, and try to relieve herself. She stopped > eating. Her backbone was becoming very pronounced. I brought her to > the Vet. They put her through all the tests, X-rays and all, and > found nothing wrong. They suspected stomach cancer. She was too weak > for a biopsy. > After bringing Sam home, I watched her deteriorate rapidly. Extreme > bloating. The vet gave her pills  that were supposed to ease her in > the bloating. And entice her to eat. She would walk a few steps and > drop. Wait a few minutes, and get up, and repeat her heartbreaking > walk. Her left side drained into her hind leg and was twice normal > size. She was eating a little bit, and a tiny piece of bloody stool. > I would have to pick her up to get her on the sofa with me when she > ’signaled’ she wanted to come up. When she wanted down, she would > jump, walk a few steps and drop. > The vet had said she is in a lot of pain, and would just keep getting > bloated, and recommended putting her down. I made that decision. {Is > it true cats don’t show the pain they’re in?} > I’m very sorry.  Yes, it is true.

So…she could have really been hurting. I didn’t want to see that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I started cleaning up her ‘area’ at home, I looked in a ‘double > sliding door’ cabinet  Which was always opened. The rise is an inch > shorter than the litter box. I had found at the right end, inside. > Five times, that Sam had defecated in there. Each ‘healthy.’ I never > noticed any odor. She had to be doing that for a long while before > she got sick. There was always waste in her litter box.  I didn’t > think I was ever missing any. > Why would she have used the cabinet? Does anybody know? Was she > getting better with the fluid draining from her? I had to wrap her in > a towel to hold her. > I found this newsgroup when I did a search for my old posts. And > found…. > View: Complete Thread (97 articles) > Original Format > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav > <<<SNIP>>> > BTW, Twonky continues as before: she has ascites, but no other > symptoms.  I will be taking her in next week for at least another > blood test, and possibly another draining, at which time I will > discuss the issue of tests in greater depth with my vets. > Stacy Scott > slscott at sirius dot com > (reformat as necessary) > How did it turn out Stacy? Was I too hasty? ‘My’ vet was not helpful > at all in trying to keep Samantha alive! He just wanted to, ‘put her > down!’ And I obliged him. > Twonky….. > kiddush Ha~Shem > alt.paranormal.crop-circles > Hard to know for sure, I have a vet who I think tries to help make that > decision a little easier, he helped me with it with a very sick cat > recently.  And then another cat I have now who was very sick, I chose to > persue treatment. He *still* says he thought putting him down would have > been kinder. *shrugs*  He doesn’t know my cat like I do.

A co-worker, Bill, has a 17 year old cat. It was suppose to die years ago when diagnosed with a kidney problem.. Hasn’t got a tooth in its mouth. This cat has more than nine lives. It has gone through sickness where he thought it would die on the spot. But it keeps coming back. Right now ‘Blacky’ has trouble with his hind legs. But  eating and walking. Following Bill around. And stool so strong, Bill says it drives him out of the house. I said to him; "Too bad I didn’t let Sam just work it out. If she beat it, then we could sit around and talk about our sick cats, and their remarkable recoveries." I’d be interested to know what Stacy’s cat had/has. And how everything turned out. The post was written in 1999. I wonder how Twonky did. And how she did it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now there’s Maya. An indoor cat all of her life. A three year old > black & white domestic. Takes all the same spots Sam had used. Except > no pooping in the cabinet. > I had Sam get all of her shots. I was never crazy about all the shots > they normally give a cat. I had to get a rabies booster for > Maya…because it’s the law. > I made an appointment recently to get Maya’s claws cut. She wouldn’t > let me do it. When I called to make the appointment they told me Maya > was due for her distemper shot. Went there, Inquired what exactly is > a distemper shot? I thought it might be to calm Maya down. It wasn’t, > so I rejected it. > The vet tried sitting Maya on her lap to cut her claws. No way. She > just about threw Maya back in the box, and said; "I have to get help > for a ‘mad’ cat!" Took the box and Maya, and went to get help. > Maya eats nothing but meow mix, and IAMS, and turns her nose up at > tuna! Go figure! > Congrats on Maya! You can’t second guess yourself on what went wrong with > Samantha, you can only do what you know, and if you don’t know, ask. That’s > all you can do.  And enjoy, and offer a quality of life that makes their > time with you wonderful – and your time with them.

I try to. Thanks for the support Sheryl…. Twonky… kiddush Ha~Shem

Response:

I hope someone can tell me is it true that tuna is bad for cats and why is it so?I’m a little bit worried because my two cats won’t eat anything but Whiskas with the taste of tuna.Thanks                                    Jelena

Response:

> I hope someone can tell me is it true that tuna is bad for cats and why is > it so?I’m a little bit worried because my two cats won’t eat anything but > Whiskas with the taste of tuna.Thanks >                                    Jelena

when people talk about "tuna" here, they most likely mean actual tuna meat only, not tuna-flavored cat food. what’s "bad" about tuna is that is not nutritionally complete, therefore feeding only tuna to cats would be a bad idea. tuna was never "Designed" for cats; whiskas is designed with cats in mind. we could debate the merits of whiskas compared to other types of cat food, but rest assured, it’s better for your cat than a can of 100% tuna. Before you buy.

Response:

Jelena. We give our cats tuna, and have for many years. But only occasionally, and in small amounts, just as a special treat. (When we make tuna sandwiches or casserole for ourselves). Their regular diet is professionally formulated dry cat food. I believe Whiska’s has fiber, grains and nutrients other than what tuna provides. Tuna by itself is an incomplete food. I have no reason to believe that it is harmful in small amounts given now and then. On the matter of "won’t eat anything else" — they will if they get hungry enough. You should ask yourself if these, beautiful, loving but clever critters are manipulating you. There is a old adage in raising pets that we should all remember: "Food is not love." Good luck Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  —– Original Message —–   Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav   Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 2:56 AM   I hope someone can tell me is it true that tuna is bad for cats and why is   it so?I’m a little bit worried because my two cats won’t eat anything but   Whiskas with the taste of tuna.Thanks                                      Jelena   I hope someone can tell me is it true that tuna is bad for cats and why is   it so?I’m a little bit worried because my two cats won’t eat anything but   Whiskas with the taste of tuna.Thanks                                      Jelena

Response:

Jelena: Nice name.  I have an Aunt Jelena in Croatia.  The question about your cats and Tuna.  My wife has a 10 year old Manx Cat.  It only eats Tuna. The cat is extremely healthy and has a nice coat.  It will not eat cat food, table food.  It will only eat Tuna.  The cat seems to be fine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I hope someone can tell me is it true that tuna is bad for cats and why is > it so?I’m a little bit worried because my two cats won’t eat anything but > Whiskas with the taste of tuna.Thanks >                                    Jelena

Response:

My impression is that it’s tuna for humans that’s bad for cats. Cat food – namely Whiskas Tuna – would be OK. The problem with human-style tuna is that it doesn’t contain the proper balance of vitamins for a cat. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I hope someone can tell me is it true that tuna is bad for cats and why is >it so?I’m a little bit worried because my two cats won’t eat anything but >Whiskas with the taste of tuna.Thanks >                                   Jelena > Tuna in a can or not is part of a cat’s natural diet.  However, canned > tuna is not good for cats because of the high salt content.  High > amounts of salt do to a cat what they do to you.  Increase blood > pressure.  A tuna steak from the grocery store is fine for a cat to > eat as often as you like.  But they need a balanced diet, just like > you.

Response:

When my cat had a urinary tract infection, my vet asked if I gave the cat tuna, which we did (cat and human).  She said that tuna is high in magnesium and can contribute to urinary tract infections. ….DT

Response:

> Jelena: > Nice name.  I have an Aunt Jelena in Croatia.  The question about your > cats and Tuna.  My wife has a 10 year old Manx Cat.  It only eats Tuna. > The cat is extremely healthy and has a nice coat.  It will not eat cat > food, table food.  It will only eat Tuna.  The cat seems to be fine.

Although the cat seem healthy for now, it may well be malnourished. Don’t take my word for it though. Consult a qualified vet. He will tell you how to go about ensuring the cat gets a balanced diet, and what the potential consequences are if it is fed tuna alone. Don’t leave it too late. John H

Response:

Tuna as a staple diet is poor, lacking in all of the proer nutrients that a cat needs – *but*…  when people say that, they are talking about regular canned tuna, meant for human consumption.  Not (tuna) cat food, formulated specifically for cats. Cathy — "Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap."   Paul Simon ("Ren