Dolphin Swim Adventure
Question:
I was under the impression you > wanted to discourage people from attending these things. Well, here I am.
Never did I ever tell you or anybody else to not pay $100 to splash around in a shallow pool with captive cetaceans. As far as I know, they’re legal enterprises with business licenses, and it’s a free country. > Convince me and you will have a life long convert.
Do what you want; I’m not looking for converts. I just wanted you to have some information they might not offer you while they take your hard-earned money, so you can make an informed decision. Otherwise, unless I see > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > establishments.
Well, you sure showed me. That’ll teach me :) Seriously, I’ll leave you with this thought, for what it’s worth: Have you ever been approached by a dolphin or any large marine animal in its own habitat and on its own terms? If you ever are lucky enough to come face to face with a 500# dolphin (or 2000# sea lion or 6′ shark or 9′ moray eel), you’ll acquire a great deal of respect for those creatures REAL QUICK, more than you’d ever get by seeing them in a petting zoo. And maybe, just maybe, you’ll come to believe that these creatures were meant to be free. You think those dolphins just swam into the pens on their own, and are free to leave anytime they want? And I believe the term is "secular humanist" :)
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> I am not an expert, and I apologize if I presented myself as one.
There is no need to apologize. I was just trying to get a better grasp on how to evaluate your opinion. Most people are not going to have the oportunity to spend hours with, or have dinner with the dolphin discovery people as you were able to do. Your response gives more weight to positive opinion of them you expressed. — Charles
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> Otherwise, unless I see > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > establishments.
Physical abuse or mental abuse? –Tom <— wonders how you would see mental abuse???
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> > Otherwise, unless I see > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > establishments. > Physical abuse or mental abuse? > –Tom <— wonders how you would see mental abuse???
That’s a good question! I was referring to physical abuse but you bring up a good point. How does one tell if a dolphin is mentally abused?
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Probably the same way they ultimately figured out that animals in zoos prefer large expanses rather than small cages. They gave gorillas things to climb. But in the end… they may still be miserable in captivity. Dolphins are supposed to be significantly more intelligent than any other animal except for man. Though I will submit that dolphins don’t hijack planes and crash them into buildings. They don’t put people in concentration camps. They don’t shoot school children with guns. They don’t blow up government buildings. Perhaps… they ARE more intelligent than man. And… maybe man really has no right to keep them in small underwater cages, simply for our own amusement. I guess I would submit that we look at the Stingray City model. They are wild/free stingrays that choose to visit with people daily. I say we let the dolphins go free and give THEM the freedom to come visit people if they so choose. Just like the stingrays. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Otherwise, unless I see > > signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these > > establishments. > Physical abuse or mental abuse? > –Tom <— wonders how you would see mental abuse??? > That’s a good question! I was referring to physical abuse but you bring up > a good point. How does one tell if a dolphin is mentally abused?
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have only three comments, posted below… > The moment I read this statement from you, citing religious dogma to support > your position, you lost me. No way will I or anyone else gain ground with a > person using religion as the basis of their opinion. That’s two. > There’s an old saying: Man considered himself on a higher plane than > dolphins because Man has developed nuclear weapons and power, the internal > combustion engine, political action committees, consumer-oriented societies, > and bottles of water that cost $2, while all dolphins ever do is eat fish, > swim, play, and make little dolphins. Now, dolphins feel they are on a > higher plane than Man for the exact same reasons. That’s three. > Oh, BTW, I’m not a member of any whacko environmental activist group (does > the Sierra Club count as a buncha whackos?). But before I took on the > careers of a full-time musician and writer, I was studying to be a marine > biologist. Okay, that’s one more than I said I had. Oops.
That’s it??? That’s your supporting documentation??? I don’t care that you are a humanistic atheist, or that you consider dolphins to be on a "higher plane" than man, or that you dropped out of college. All I was asking for is something definitive that would convince me that the dolphin encounters are a bad thing! I enjoyed my encounters, but if they are abusive to dolphins I would never attend another one. I was under the impression you wanted to discourage people from attending these things. Well, here I am. Convince me and you will have a life long convert. Otherwise, unless I see signs of abuse personally, I intend to continue patronizing these establishments.
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Charles, sorry, I am about as qualified by training as Sean Penn is too assess the status of weapons in Iraq. I am not a biologist, I am an engineer. I am now retired. I spent time with the people at Dolphin Discovery at the invitation of the young lady who booked my family and friends to Dolphin Discovery on several Western loop cruises. My wife and I had dinner at her home, and spent several informal hours visiting with her and several of the Dolphin trainers. We also spent several hours in the Dolphin area with them when there were no paying tourists around. I am not an expert, and I apologize if I presented myself as one. I have been to two of their locations, one on the mainland, and one at the park in Cozumel. However, I did feel a bond for the young people who dedicated some years of their lives to work with the Dolphins at this particular location (Cozumel), and I believe they were quite genuine in their efforts and endeavors. As I recall, they also talked quite a bit about a dolphin exhibit that had opened up about that time (Perhaps this was four years ago, I am not certain) on the west coast of Mexico, wherein they believed the Dolphins were not being treated well, and were being exploited without due care for their well being, so I am not if full disagreement with the very polite and articulate writer on this thread who was critcal of the Dolphin experience in general. I do believe, based on input from these few people (who did seem to understand the business), that there are very different venues for dolphin experiences, and the Dolphin Discovery is one that hires people who make a serious effort to learn from and work with these marvelous creatures. Incidentally, on that visit we also spent time talking about the folks that were leasing horses for horseback riding on the mainland of Mexico for cruise ship passengers. There was some very poor treatment for those horses (I hope the problem has been resolved over the years) and these individuals were the type of people who cared about all of these things.
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Has anyone taken the Dolphin swim adventure and Dunn’s river falls excursion offered by HAL in Ocho Rios? Wondering if it is worth the money ($99). We will be there during the week of Dec. 21-28. I greatly appreciate any input.
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I have not done Ocho Rios, but I have some doubts. If you are on the Western Loop, contact DolphinDiscovery.com before your trip. You can set up a swim with the Dolphins when the ship docks — this cannot be done on board the ship. There are two locations near the ship docking areas no matter where they are docking – Dolphin Discovery can assist you. You can contact them by e-mail or by phone, as there is someone there who speaks English. When you get to Cozumel or the other Mexican port, you can take a cab to the dolphin swim area. The tour the ship sells only involves wading on the edge of the tank, and costs nearly as much money. DolphinDiscovery is great and a real adventure with well cared for Dolphins.
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Thanks RJQMAN. I will definitely check it out.
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My husband and I booked through Dolphin Discovery 3 years ago and will be taking our kids this February. It is an incredible experience.
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> My husband and I booked through Dolphin Discovery 3 years ago and will be > taking our kids this February. It is an incredible experience.
Not for the dolphins. Their lifespan is cut by 2/3 or more after capture and subjection to these "swim encounters". Just so you know.
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> My husband and I booked through Dolphin Discovery 3 years ago and will be > taking our kids this February. It is an incredible experience. > Not for the dolphins. Their lifespan is cut by 2/3 or more after capture > and subjection to these "swim encounters". Just so you know.
Would you mind citing your sources? I have been to the Dolphin Encounters at Nassau and Cozumel. In both cases the trainers told us of how much longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean. I can’t recall the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer. Their explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress of living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical attention and required medical attention when needed. I would appreciate any information to the contrary. ChrisH
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> Would you mind citing your sources? I have been to the Dolphin Encounters > at Nassau and Cozumel. In both cases the trainers told us of how much > longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean. I can’t recall > the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer.
This is such an audacious lie, I’m surprised they had the nerve to tell you. Their > explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress of > living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical attention > and required medical attention when needed. I would appreciate any > information to the contrary.
The stress of living in the open ocean?! Well–fed?? Ay yi yi–and you bought all this? How’s this: bottlenose dolphins have a hunting range of miles and miles and miles. The ones caught off the coast of Florida for these pens are hunting in either the Gulf Stream or the Gulf of Mexico, two of the richest fishing grounds in the world. They swim hundreds of miles a day, communicating with not only their family members or their pods, but other pods as well, sometimes with thousands of other dolphins at once. They dive to catch their food, sometimes down to a hundred meters down–all day and every day. Animals do get sick in the wild, and if it’s a life-threatening illness they die and their remains give nourishment to other organisms. It’s the law of nature and applies to all living beings from bacteria to humans. But if allowed to live their life in the natural way they’ve evolved over millions of years, they flourish and prosper. Dolphins were doing just fine for millennia without preventive health care from humans, you know. Dolphins in captivity are kept in pens, and even the largest of them are nothing more than tanks, maybe thirty feet deep. They are fed a restricted diet–they don’t hunt, they are fed. They didn’t ask to be captured and imprisoned. They are…oh hell. I’ll put it another way. Suppose one day while out shopping you’re kidnapped, stuck in a box for days, then put in a large bare cubicle to live out the rest of your days. You aren’t allowed to talk to anybody but your captors (who speak a different language than you). You are fed what they think is good for you. You are compelled to learn and perform tricks and stunts with people riding on your back, whether you want to or not. You can never run again; there’s not enough room in your cubicle. You’ll never see your friends of family ever again. Meanwhile your captors charge people a lot of money so they can come put their hands all over you and ride you like a pony (covering your skin with their pathogens), all in a room with a five foot ceiling. How would you feel after enduring a year of this, with absolutely no chance of escape or change? Well, that’s what the dolphins go through in these places. I don’t know how you’d react, but the majority of dolphins get depressed and die within a few years (replacing dead dolphins in these places is a lucrative business). Whoever told you they are better off in cages than at home in the open ocean is a bald-faced liar! If you don’t want to take my word for it, I’ll dig up some stories of people who have worked at these places. I’m astounded that these people you talked to would lie so openly to someone who doesn’t know any better. One day the truth about these so-called "Dolphin Rehab Centers" (that charge $100 for a chance to pet them in cages) will be exposed and it will be a worldwide scandal.
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Sounds like horseback riding would be a really terrible thing to do also. Much less keeping a dog in the house.
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> Sounds like horseback riding would be a really terrible thing to do also. Much > less keeping a dog in the house.
Horses, dogs, cats, guinea pigs, etc. are domesticated pets, not wild animals.
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(REPLIED IN POSTING)
> Would you mind citing your sources? I have been to the Dolphin Encounters > at Nassau and Cozumel. In both cases the trainers told us of how much > longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean. I can’t > recall > the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer. > This is such an audacious lie, I’m surprised they had the nerve to tell
you. Thanks for replying. You sound knowledgeable on the subject. I hope you don’t mind my asking a few more questions. In Nassau, they have many dolphins. Some of them, I’d say about a third to a half, are not "performers" at all, but more like "retired". Several of them are famous for their roles in the movie Flipper and are now too old to do anything else. I personally went and looked at them. While I am NO expert on dolphins by any means, they all looked full grown and mature. If anything, it appeared to me to be the truth of what they had said. I had no reason to doubt their word as you do. That is why I asked for additional info. > Their > explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress of > living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical attention > and required medical attention when needed. I would appreciate any > information to the contrary. > The stress of living in the open ocean?! Well–fed?? Ay yi yi–and you > bought all this?
Yes, I did. Why wouldn’t I? What they said is logical and makes sense to me. I would be interested in more info supporting your claims though. I enjoyed my experience with the dolphins and would NOT want to contribute to their abuse. So, as I said earlier, I would be interested in any additional supporting information you can provide. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How’s this: bottlenose dolphins have a hunting range of miles and miles and > miles. The ones caught off the coast of Florida for these pens are hunting > in either the Gulf Stream or the Gulf of Mexico, two of the richest fishing > grounds in the world. They swim hundreds of miles a day, communicating with > not only their family members or their pods, but other pods as well, > sometimes with thousands of other dolphins at once. They dive to catch > their food, sometimes down to a hundred meters down–all day and every day. > Animals do get sick in the wild, and if it’s a life-threatening illness they > die and their remains give nourishment to other organisms. It’s the law of > nature and applies to all living beings from bacteria to humans. But if > allowed to live their life in the natural way they’ve evolved over millions > of years, they flourish and prosper. Dolphins were doing just fine for > millennia without preventive health care from humans, you know.
I agree 100%. Dolphins do what dolphins do. And I agree that dolphins can survive without man’s help. But that’s not the topic of this conversation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dolphins in captivity are kept in pens, and even the largest of them are > nothing more than tanks, maybe thirty feet deep. They are fed a restricted > diet–they don’t hunt, they are fed. They didn’t ask to be captured and > imprisoned. They are…oh hell. I’ll put it another way. > Suppose one day while out shopping you’re kidnapped, stuck in a box for > days, then put in a large bare cubicle to live out the rest of your days. > You aren’t allowed to talk to anybody but your captors (who speak a > different language than you). You are fed what they think is good for you. > You are compelled to learn and perform tricks and stunts with people riding > on your back, whether you want to or not. You can never run again; there’s > not enough room in your cubicle. You’ll never see your friends of family > ever again. Meanwhile your captors charge people a lot of money so they can > come put their hands all over you and ride you like a pony (covering your > skin with their pathogens), all in a room with a five foot ceiling.
This arguement would make sense, and I would even agree with you, if I thought dolphins were the equals of man. In my opinion, they aren’t. Dolphins don’t vote, they don’t pay taxes, they aren’t protected by a constitution of laws, they don’t create art, music, buildings, medicine. They don’t practise science, philosophy, religion or any of the higher sciences. God gave man dominion over the earth and the animals, not vice versa. Now, before anyone goes off on a tangent here, let me say that no one, especially me, believes in abusing any animal, whether it be dumb or intelligent, for any reason. I’m even the kind of guy that feeds stray dogs and cats just because they look hungry and malnurished. I have pets and love them dearly. I have cried at their loss when "Mother Time" took her toll. I love animals of every kind. I even had a pet Boa Constrictor that lived a long healthy life. I don’t hunt, not because I think it’s wrong, (I don’t), but because I just can’t kill an animal for sport. If I were feeding a family it would be a different matter, but I’m not. But despite my compassion for animals, I have never thought of them as anything other than an animal, not an equal to me. Now granted, I have met some humans that I thought were closer to being an animal than human but that’s another story entirely. :) Prior to these meetings, I had never met a dolphin before. I had no real understanding of how beautiful they were. Absolutely incredible animals. I’m sure we can agree on that. My encounter with the dolphins has given me a new respect for dolphins. How anyone could purposely abuse these creatures is beyond me. If I have done a bad thing by supporting these so called Dolphin Rehab Centers, I would feel absolutely terrible. So please present your supporting evidence that they are not being well taken care of. PLEASE! > How would you feel after enduring a year of this, with absolutely no chance > of escape or change? Well, that’s what the dolphins go through in these > places. I don’t know how you’d react, but the majority of dolphins get > depressed and die within a few years (replacing dead dolphins in these > places is a lucrative business). Whoever told you they are better off in > cages than at home in the open ocean is a bald-faced liar!
Well, they may be liars, I won’t argue that. But I would like to see some supporting eveidence. > If you don’t want to take my word for it, I’ll dig up some stories of people > who have worked at these places. I’m astounded that these people you talked > to would lie so openly to someone who doesn’t know any better. One day the > truth about these so-called "Dolphin Rehab Centers" (that charge $100 for a > chance to pet them in cages) will be exposed and it will be a worldwide > scandal.
It’s not just a matter of taking your word for it or not. I don’t know you. I have no idea if you are a complete and total animal rights whacko whose paranoia prevents you from using logic and reason, or simply a fellow animal lover concerned for the dolphins well beings. I will say this, that in both encounters that I have enjoyed, the dolphins were playful and seemed happy. They responded eagerly to commands and showed no fear of humans whatsoever. I know that if an animal is abused continuously it will often turn on it’s owner. These dolphins could easily kill any human at any time if they so desired to. Never at any time did I see, or hear about an aggressive dolphin injuring a human. It seems to me that it would be quite foolish to get into a tank with dolphins that were very close to going "postal". (If there are any postal workers reading this, forgive me. 
Yes, I am concerned that you might be correct. Please show me some supporting evidence! ChrisH
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> It’s not just a matter of taking your word for it or not. I don’t know you. > I have no idea if you are a complete and total animal rights whacko whose > paranoia prevents you from using logic and reason, or simply a fellow animal > lover concerned for the dolphins well beings.
I tend to be on the skeptical side of claims like those made by Skip but in this case I am not. I have not made up my mind, but having observed the operations at Xcaret, Chankanaab and Bermuda,logic and reason tells me that the sole purpose of the dolphin discoverys is profit. Seeing the tourists lined up at Xcaret, and the dolphins and pens there, left a negative impression. It does not look as bad at Chankaanab and Bermuda since they are smaller operations. They don’t do it to protect dolphins or study dolphins. What the dolphins are doing is artifical. In order to eat they have to perform. It is not what dolphins do in nature. These operations exist only to make money on tourists. So to me the burden of proof is on the the dolphin adventure companies to prove that what they do is not bad for the dolphins. — Charles
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The treatment varies a great deal from one location to another. DolphinDiscovery does an excellent job of caring for and working with Dolphins. Some of the other operations are more suspect. There is always room for various viewpoints when animals are not free. I have read of horses being mistreated in Mexico where horseback riding is available for cruise ship passengers. Cats being skinned alive in Florida, and I have seen dogs deserted and starving in locked houses. DolphinDiscovery is nothing like this. It is composed of people who are deeply for the Dolphins they work with. These people too are critical of Dolphin operations that are in it solely for the money. I have spent many hours with the people there on many trips. They have told me of abusive phone calls from activists who do not know them personally or do not agree with having animals, fish, or Dolphins in any form of captivity. People even picket Sea World. I strongly believe that DolphinDiscovery is a positive thing. I have watched them for hours work with the Dolphins, and I see strong bonds, not like a person with a favorite dog or cat, develop. It would have been difficult and pointless for these fine young people to lie over dinner and drinks on multiple trips there.
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> I strongly believe that DolphinDiscovery is a positive thing. I have > watched them for hours work with the Dolphins, and I see strong > bonds, not like a person with a favorite dog or cat, develop. It > would have been difficult and pointless for these fine young people > to lie over dinner and drinks on multiple trips there.
Fine. But how is it that you have spent so many hours with them? Do you have a business relationship with them or a personal relationship with someone who works there? Are you part of some organization or watchdog group? Do you have any qualifications in marine biology? It would be good to know how objective an observer you are since you have had opportunity to observe which is beyond that of most people. — Charles
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I have only three comments, posted below…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (REPLIED IN POSTING) > > Would you mind citing your sources? I have been to the Dolphin > Encounters > > at Nassau and Cozumel. In both cases the trainers told us of how much > > longer the dolphins lived in captivity vice the open ocean. I can’t > recall > > the exact years but it was somewhere around 4 or 5 years longer. > This is such an audacious lie, I’m surprised they had the nerve to tell > you. > Thanks for replying. You sound knowledgeable on the subject. I hope you > don’t mind my asking a few more questions. In Nassau, they have many > dolphins. Some of them, I’d say about a third to a half, are not > "performers" at all, but more like "retired". Several of them are famous > for their roles in the movie Flipper and are now too old to do anything > else. I personally went and looked at them. While I am NO expert on > dolphins by any means, they all looked full grown and mature. If anything, > it appeared to me to be the truth of what they had said. I had no reason to > doubt their word as you do. That is why I asked for additional info. > Their > > explanation was the fact that they are fed well, don’t have the stress > of > > living in the open ocean, and receive both preventative medical > attention > > and required medical attention when needed. I would appreciate any > > information to the contrary. > The stress of living in the open ocean?! Well–fed?? Ay yi yi–and you > bought all this? > Yes, I did. Why wouldn’t I? What they said is logical and makes sense to > me. I would be interested in more info supporting your claims though. I > enjoyed my experience with the dolphins and would NOT want to contribute to > their abuse. So, as I said earlier, I would be interested in any additional > supporting information you can provide. > How’s this: bottlenose dolphins have a hunting range of miles and miles > and > miles. The ones caught off the coast of Florida for these pens are > hunting > in either the Gulf Stream or the Gulf of Mexico, two of the richest > fishing > grounds in the world. They swim hundreds of miles a day, communicating > with > not only their family members or their pods, but other pods as well, > sometimes with thousands of other dolphins at once. They dive to catch > their food, sometimes down to a hundred meters down–all day and every > day. > Animals do get sick in the wild, and if it’s a life-threatening illness > they > die and their remains give nourishment to other organisms. It’s the law > of > nature and applies to all living beings from bacteria to humans. But if > allowed to live their life in the natural way they’ve evolved over > millions > of years, they flourish and prosper. Dolphins were doing just fine for > millennia without preventive health care from humans, you know. > I agree 100%. Dolphins do what dolphins do. And I agree that dolphins can > survive without man’s help. But that’s not the topic of this
conversation. I mentioned this aspect of your question (how dolphins in captivity receive better medical care in captivitythat those in the wild) because yoou brought it up. That’s one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dolphins in captivity are kept in pens, and even the largest of them are > nothing more than tanks, maybe thirty feet deep. They are fed a > restricted > diet–they don’t hunt, they are fed. They didn’t ask to be captured and > imprisoned. They are…oh hell. I’ll put it another way. > Suppose one day while out shopping you’re kidnapped, stuck in a box for > days, then put in a large bare cubicle to live out the rest of your days. > You aren’t allowed to talk to anybody but your captors (who speak a > different language than you). You are fed what they think is good for > you. > You are compelled to learn and perform tricks and stunts with people > riding > on your back, whether you want to or not. You can never run again; > there’s > not enough room in your cubicle. You’ll never see your friends of family > ever again. Meanwhile your captors charge people a lot of money so they > can > come put their hands all over you and ride you like a pony (covering your > skin with their pathogens), all in a room with a five foot ceiling. > This arguement would make sense, and I would even agree with you, if I > thought dolphins were the equals of man. In my opinion, they aren’t. > Dolphins don’t vote, they don’t pay taxes, they aren’t protected by a > constitution of laws, they don’t create art, music, buildings, medicine. > They don’t practise science, philosophy, religion or any of the higher > sciences. God gave man dominion over the earth and the animals, not vice > versa.
The moment I read this statement from you, citing religious dogma to support your position, you lost me. No way will I or anyone else gain ground with a person using religion as the basis of their opinion. That’s two. There’s an old saying: Man considered himself on a higher plane than dolphins because Man has developed nuclear weapons and power, the internal combustion engine, political action committees, consumer-oriented societies, and bottles of water that cost $2, while all dolphins ever do is eat fish, swim, play, and make little dolphins. Now, dolphins feel they are on a higher plane than Man for the exact same reasons. That’s three. Oh, BTW, I’m not a member of any whacko environmental activist group (does the Sierra Club count as a buncha whackos?). But before I took on the careers of a full-time musician and writer, I was studying to be a marine biologist. Okay, that’s one more than I said I had. Oops.
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