Making an indoor/outdoor cat an indoor cat only

Question:

> > Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an > engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything > you want to.

Exactly why I asked for a reference to any published studies. > For example, let’s say you have a study with only two > indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The > other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age > (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 > and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for > indoor/outdoor cats?

By definition the average age would be 8.  What’s your point?  Note that a study with only 2 subjects would certainly be fatally flawed. > Or would you ignore the accident causing the > younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are > capable of living, 15 years?

Once again I’m not certain of your point.  A valid study will carefully define what is doing & abide by those definitions. > In this same way, many human life > expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that > anyone checking the table would be beyond that.

Well, actually, it’s a pretty good assumption that anyone who could read a mortality table is alive  But, once again, I’m not sure of your point. Yes, some studies ignore infant mortality.  But if you know that (by actually reading the study), you can take that into account in making decisions. > Then we get into averages, means, and all the other statistician

mumbo-jumbo… I’m not sure why people seem so afraid of statistics (although it IS very boring subject to study).  Statistical studies have been responsible for enormous advances in public health (human + animal).  E.g., there would be no rabies or polio vaccines without such statistical "mumbo-jumbo".

– JR

Response:

About the Tufts study on indoor/outdoor cats versus indoor only cats and life expectancy.  There are many different types of outdoor environments.  Some cats living way out in the country and isolated from people and cars might live longer than an indoor/outdoor cat living in the city or suburbs.  People put weed killers, insecticides on their lawns – cats lick their paws, leave antifreeze around, cats can get locked in sheds by mistake, cars, etc., etc.,   You would have to also know the environment of this Tufts study.

Response:

> Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of > indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of > what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, > some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, > some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats > that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period > of time?

Well, all of these questions would be answered by a careful reading of the actual study, which is why I asked for a reference. > How much time is the fine line to be considered an indoor/outdoor cat??? A > cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back > inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat.

I don’t understand why so many people think it is not possible to do a scientific study of this question.  Of course, there are varying degrees of indoor vs. outdoor cats.  So what?  There are also lots of varyind degrees of smokers, but that didn’t stop careful studies from being done. A good study of of the indoor vs. outdoor question would define what it means by an "indoor-outdoor" cat & go from there.  A more careful study could segment cats into several classes & study each. > Kelly

– JR

Response:

Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on indoor/outdoor cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re (Signet and I) interested in.  Read the below message.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > his career due to his profession. > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the > idea. > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what > was the period of time? > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > Just a couple thoughts. > Kelly > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The >>difference is not so > > great as people often believe.

Response:

Yes I see what you mean…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an > engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything > you want to. For example, let’s say you have a study with only two > indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The > other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age > (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 > and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for > indoor/outdoor cats? Or would you ignore the accident causing the > younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are > capable of living, 15 years? In this same way, many human life > expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that > anyone checking the table would be beyond that. Then we get into > averages, means, and all the other statistician mumbo-jumbo… > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on > indoor/outdoor > cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re > (Signet and I) > interested in.  Read the below message. > > Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in > the > > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away > from > > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for > the > > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of > old > > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > > his career due to his profession. > > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get > the > > idea. > > — > > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > > > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many > varying > > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some > cats go out > > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats > go out for 6 > > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this > documented > study > > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if > so, what > > was the period of time? > > > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to > urinate/defecatate and > then comes > > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > > > Just a couple thoughts. > > > Kelly > > > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study > ever > > >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned > indoor/outdoor cats > > >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats > average 12-15 > yrs. The > > >>difference is not so > > > > great as people often believe.

Response:

Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything you want to. For example, let’s say you have a study with only two indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for indoor/outdoor cats? Or would you ignore the accident causing the younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are capable of living, 15 years? In this same way, many human life expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that anyone checking the table would be beyond that. Then we get into averages, means, and all the other statistician mumbo-jumbo… — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on indoor/outdoor > cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re (Signet and I) > interested in.  Read the below message. > Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > his career due to his profession. > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the > idea. > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented > study > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what > was the period of time? > > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to

urinate/defecatate and – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> then comes > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > > Just a couple thoughts. > > Kelly > > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever > >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats > >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 > yrs. The > >>difference is not so > > > great as people often believe.

Response:

My first cat, Annie, was originally a barn cat.  She was 6 months old when I got her and I let her out at first but don’t anymore.  There is too much traffic and people throwing weed killers all over and spraying their aluminum siding with chemical cleaners, etc.  I started keeping her inside when I went on vacation.  My sister comes in and takes care of the cats when I’m gone she got used to it then. My other two cats only go out with their harness and leads on.  I started them young and they love going out this way.  Annie has adjusted well; once in awhile she meows  and stares at me wanting to go out.  I have a porch that is screened in and have bird feeders all around.  She loves to watch the birds and the birds seem to know she can’t get out.   Also I have cat trees for them to climb.   Siamese are supposed to be easy to leash train.  I think Kato will adjust.

Response:

> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so > great as people often believe.

Ahhh … now this sounds like it has the possibility of being a scientific study. Does anyone have a reference to the actual published study? — JR

Response:

Doing some checking up are we??  heheheh..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average > of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is > not so > great as people often believe. > Ahhh … now this sounds like it has the possibility of being a scientific > study. > Does anyone have a reference to the actual published study? > — > JR

Response:

Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout his career due to his profession. I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the idea. — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

> Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of > indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of > what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, > some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, > some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats > that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period > of time? > How much time is the fine line to be considered an

indoor/outdoor cat???  A – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back > inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > Just a couple thoughts. > Kelly > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average > of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is > not so > great as people often believe.

Response:

Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period of time? How much time is the fine line to be considered an indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. Just a couple thoughts. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so > great as people often believe.

Response:

>> he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; >Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory >animals at all.

no cayotes here either.  Kato was born in a farmer’s barn 40 miles away from where I live.

Response:

>Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is >terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed >they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he >recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they >forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do >something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have >to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural >instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe >that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person >they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just >stating my opinion!).

According to British feline behaviorist Roger Tabor, indoor cats do exhibit far more behavioral problems than do cats with access to the outdoors. They are also more likely to be obese. >But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the >owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere >dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one >inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind >is "is it safe for the cats?"

My thinking as well. Currently we do not live in an area where it would be safe for the cats to roam free without supervision, so we take them for walks on leashes. We have put cat-proofing around our fences in the back yard, so they can go unleashed there. And they do have a great time running around chasing butterflies and lightning bugs. We do not ever let them out unsupervised. Soon we plan to move to a less busy area where we can have a much larger yard for them, and better places to take walks.  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t >live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of >speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the >end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my >cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long. >Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* >I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live.

According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so great as people often believe. >There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of >them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the >last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam >next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the >other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose >their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here.  

Yes, my last cat was indoor/outdoor and she died at 17 of liver failure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; >Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory >animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside. >Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out >after dark either. >I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the >choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised >risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the >first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to >offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be >selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give >me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one >at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they >had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. >They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass >with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all >the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching >any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather >than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them >just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, >not for them.

As I just read in an article about leash training cats, just because cats are forced to live indoors and can often adjust to it, does not mean they lose their desire or instinct to enjoy the outdoors. I believe that we as cat caretakers have an obligation to provide cats with safe access to the outdoors, whether that means leash training, cat-proof fences, outdoor enclosures, or choosing to live somewhere where it is relatively safe for a cat to go outdoors unleashed. yngver (delete "nojunk" to e-mail)

Response:

Alley Cat, While all of the five cats we have had are/were indoor-only, and I don’t intend to let any outdoors (until/if I would have a home with a completely enclosed back yard with a high, non-scalable wall or fence), I think you have made some very good points, have expressed your thoughts quite well and calmly, and I totally respect your thoughts, ideas and ideals. Signet — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside. > As I said before, I don’t argue with the people who keep their cats in > because it’s their decision.  But I choose to let mine go out and always > have, because I *am* 100% sure they can’t have such a grand life inside. > Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is > terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed > they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he > recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they > forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do > something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have > to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural > instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe > that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person > they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just > stating my opinion!). > But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the > owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere > dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one > inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind > is "is it safe for the cats?"  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t > live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of > speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the > end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my > cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long. > Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* > I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live. > There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of > them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the > last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam > next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the > other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose > their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here. > he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; > Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory > animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside. > Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out > after dark either. > I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the > choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised > risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the > first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to > offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be > selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give > me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one > at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they > had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. > They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass > with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all > the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching > any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather > than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them > just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, > not for them. > Alley Cat

Response:

> I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside.

As I said before, I don’t argue with the people who keep their cats in because it’s their decision.  But I choose to let mine go out and always have, because I *am* 100% sure they can’t have such a grand life inside. Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just stating my opinion!). But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind is "is it safe for the cats?"  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long.

Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live. There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here.   > he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote;

Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside.

Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out after dark either. I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, not for them. Alley Cat

Response:

I have 9 formally outdoor strays that are all happy indoor only cats.  I have several links that might help you with suggestions, but the best advice I can give you is to shut the door and be stronger than the cat.  They might cry and beg and whine, but you just have to outlast them.  Eventually they forget. Rescue Remedy helps during the transition, and I would strongly recommend it. For both of you. Check the links on this page.  They might help with ideas, and also to encourage you in doing the right thing: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/9352/indoors.html > I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

– Tally’s Page Cat Health & Behavior Links, Special Remembrances, Animal Issues & Photos! http://www.tallyville.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ….. After weeks of quarantine and expensive clean-up treatment for > fleas, severe earmites, coccidia and tapeworm, I decided she’d just   > have to adjust to being indoors except for walks on a leash. >I’m not advocating outdoor or indoor in particular, each to his own, but >you seem to be suggesting that the reason your cat had all this was >because it went outside?  All my cats go outside and none of them has >any of those things.  None of my cats ever has had, or needed "expensive >clean-up treatment".  They get Frontlined every ten weeks and wormed >every 4 months, and they’re healthy as they could be.  If a cat’s looked >after, going outside makes little if any difference.  It wasn’t going >outside that gave the cat you adopted all that stuff, it was neglect by >the previous owner.

My reason is kinda selfish;  I never ever want to visit a cat morgue to ID a loved kittyfriend again.  I hardly recognized gizzi;  first glance didn’t work.  I actually had to specifically look at various parts of that dead cat to come to the sudden realization that it was gizzi (his chin; neck; paws…  the broken jaw didn’t help.) I’m still not 100% decided.  He had a *great* life and saturday morning just before his death, I was outside sitting in a director’s chair reading, and watching kato and gizzi tear-ass around the front yard, running up and down the trees and having a grand old time. I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside. No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long.  My problem is that there’s a nasty street 1 1/2 blocks away that is 5 lanes wide (2+2+center median) which is a kind of drag strip as it is only 1/2 mile long and goes nowhere.  The city wanted to extend it 15 miles but never got around to it.  I had always figured that it wasn’t such a danger as it only gets about 2-3 cars per minute of traffic. Kato has always had enough sense… he spend his first 8 weeks of life avoiding being a snack for a cayote;  gizzi had me concerned even before his death because I once caught him just laying around in the middle of the side street in front of my house. I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period before I even think about allowing a kitty outside.  This time I’ll wait at least a year.  I’ll have made up my mind by then. poor gizmo!

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> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

In many cases it depends on the cat’s personality.  I was able to adapt my stray kitten Ceilidth to live indoors VERY easily (I just brought her home, never let her out and she’s never wanted to go out).  On the other hand, my cat Pepe, who was indoors only from birth developed a keen interest in the outdoors and we could never keep him inside.  Eventually his curiosity cost him his life, he got out one time too many and was hit by a car.  Please give Kato a chance at being an indoor cat.  Since he was a barn cat, he may associate the outdoors with fear, cold, hunger and other unpleasant stuff.  My Ceilidth was found outside starving and with frostbite (she lost half of one ear).  I think she doesn’t want to go out because she remembers how much it sucked! — Hero, Isis, Boris and Ceilidth http://www.geocities.com/ceilidthbear/index.html Every life should have nine cats….

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I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is his life.   I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to play with should help.

Response:

>Central, again, I’m so very sorry about Gizmo.  I’m glad you went out right >away and got another kitty!  Particularly, a Siamese!!!  ;o) >I’ve always kept my kitties inside, and I hope you can make the transaction >to have them all be indoor only cats too.  I’m keeping my fingers crossed >that Mr. Kato will understand!

I think mongo will be more than enough to keep fiesty ol’ kato entertained.

Response:

Our female was a mostly-outdoor cat till we adopted her at age 8.   After weeks of quarantine and expensive clean-up treatment for fleas, severe earmites, coccidia and tapeworm, I decided she’d just have to adjust to being indoors except for walks on a leash.  Amazingly, she turned out to be our easiest cat ever to train to a leash–probably because she was already used to being outside and didn’t panic the first few times I took her out like most indoor cats.  She knows when I get out her leash that it’s time to go for a walk, seems content with a half-hour tour of the yard on nice days (hates windy or cold weather and is terrified of thunder!), and never even tries to escape from the house. Try leash training both your new kitten and Kato. — One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives.  Mark Twain

Response:

With patience, they will adjust.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

Response:

Central, again, I’m so very sorry about Gizmo.  I’m glad you went out right away and got another kitty!  Particularly, a Siamese!!!  ;o) I’ve always kept my kitties inside, and I hope you can make the transaction to have them all be indoor only cats too.  I’m keeping my fingers crossed that Mr. Kato will understand! — "Just Me" Please (removeyourshoes) before replying.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

Response:

> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

All 3 of my present cats were originally either indoor/outdoor or 100% outdoor strays.  Two of them have not have any problems adapting to an indoor-only life; surprisingly, maybe, they were the two who were 100% outdoor strays (otoh, they may have decided it’s not always everything it may be cracked up to be out there.)  The one who, according to the Humane Society, was let outside, is the one who used to try to make escapes & has 3 times – for about a minute or less each time.  Point is, it *is* quite possible to have an indoor cat who wasn’t always so.  Cathy

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I was never successful trying to do this.. I wish I was, because Bonnie would still be alive today if I could have.. but I am not saying its impossible.. but good luck to you.  I don’t have any tips.. hopefully someone else does. Good Luck > I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

–

Response:

> > Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an > engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything > you want to.

Exactly why I asked for a reference to any published studies. > For example, let’s say you have a study with only two > indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The > other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age > (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 > and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for > indoor/outdoor cats?

By definition the average age would be 8.  What’s your point?  Note that a study with only 2 subjects would certainly be fatally flawed. > Or would you ignore the accident causing the > younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are > capable of living, 15 years?

Once again I’m not certain of your point.  A valid study will carefully define what is doing & abide by those definitions. > In this same way, many human life > expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that > anyone checking the table would be beyond that.

Well, actually, it’s a pretty good assumption that anyone who could read a mortality table is alive  But, once again, I’m not sure of your point. Yes, some studies ignore infant mortality.  But if you know that (by actually reading the study), you can take that into account in making decisions. > Then we get into averages, means, and all the other statistician

mumbo-jumbo… I’m not sure why people seem so afraid of statistics (although it IS very boring subject to study).  Statistical studies have been responsible for enormous advances in public health (human + animal).  E.g., there would be no rabies or polio vaccines without such statistical "mumbo-jumbo".

– JR

Response:

About the Tufts study on indoor/outdoor cats versus indoor only cats and life expectancy.  There are many different types of outdoor environments.  Some cats living way out in the country and isolated from people and cars might live longer than an indoor/outdoor cat living in the city or suburbs.  People put weed killers, insecticides on their lawns – cats lick their paws, leave antifreeze around, cats can get locked in sheds by mistake, cars, etc., etc.,   You would have to also know the environment of this Tufts study.

Response:

> Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of > indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of > what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, > some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, > some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats > that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period > of time?

Well, all of these questions would be answered by a careful reading of the actual study, which is why I asked for a reference. > How much time is the fine line to be considered an indoor/outdoor cat??? A > cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back > inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat.

I don’t understand why so many people think it is not possible to do a scientific study of this question.  Of course, there are varying degrees of indoor vs. outdoor cats.  So what?  There are also lots of varyind degrees of smokers, but that didn’t stop careful studies from being done. A good study of of the indoor vs. outdoor question would define what it means by an "indoor-outdoor" cat & go from there.  A more careful study could segment cats into several classes & study each. > Kelly

– JR

Response:

Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on indoor/outdoor cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re (Signet and I) interested in.  Read the below message.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > his career due to his profession. > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the > idea. > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what > was the period of time? > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > Just a couple thoughts. > Kelly > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The >>difference is not so > > great as people often believe.

Response:

Yes I see what you mean…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an > engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything > you want to. For example, let’s say you have a study with only two > indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The > other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age > (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 > and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for > indoor/outdoor cats? Or would you ignore the accident causing the > younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are > capable of living, 15 years? In this same way, many human life > expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that > anyone checking the table would be beyond that. Then we get into > averages, means, and all the other statistician mumbo-jumbo… > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on > indoor/outdoor > cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re > (Signet and I) > interested in.  Read the below message. > > Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in > the > > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away > from > > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for > the > > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of > old > > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > > his career due to his profession. > > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get > the > > idea. > > — > > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > > > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many > varying > > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some > cats go out > > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats > go out for 6 > > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this > documented > study > > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if > so, what > > was the period of time? > > > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to > urinate/defecatate and > then comes > > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > > > Just a couple thoughts. > > > Kelly > > > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study > ever > > >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned > indoor/outdoor cats > > >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats > average 12-15 > yrs. The > > >>difference is not so > > > > great as people often believe.

Response:

Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything you want to. For example, let’s say you have a study with only two indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for indoor/outdoor cats? Or would you ignore the accident causing the younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are capable of living, 15 years? In this same way, many human life expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that anyone checking the table would be beyond that. Then we get into averages, means, and all the other statistician mumbo-jumbo… — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on indoor/outdoor > cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re (Signet and I) > interested in.  Read the below message. > Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > his career due to his profession. > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the > idea. > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented > study > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what > was the period of time? > > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to

urinate/defecatate and – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> then comes > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > > Just a couple thoughts. > > Kelly > > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever > >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats > >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 > yrs. The > >>difference is not so > > > great as people often believe.

Response:

My first cat, Annie, was originally a barn cat.  She was 6 months old when I got her and I let her out at first but don’t anymore.  There is too much traffic and people throwing weed killers all over and spraying their aluminum siding with chemical cleaners, etc.  I started keeping her inside when I went on vacation.  My sister comes in and takes care of the cats when I’m gone she got used to it then. My other two cats only go out with their harness and leads on.  I started them young and they love going out this way.  Annie has adjusted well; once in awhile she meows  and stares at me wanting to go out.  I have a porch that is screened in and have bird feeders all around.  She loves to watch the birds and the birds seem to know she can’t get out.   Also I have cat trees for them to climb.   Siamese are supposed to be easy to leash train.  I think Kato will adjust.

Response:

> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so > great as people often believe.

Ahhh … now this sounds like it has the possibility of being a scientific study. Does anyone have a reference to the actual published study? — JR

Response:

Doing some checking up are we??  heheheh..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average > of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is > not so > great as people often believe. > Ahhh … now this sounds like it has the possibility of being a scientific > study. > Does anyone have a reference to the actual published study? > — > JR

Response:

Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout his career due to his profession. I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the idea. — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

> Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of > indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of > what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, > some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, > some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats > that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period > of time? > How much time is the fine line to be considered an

indoor/outdoor cat???  A – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back > inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > Just a couple thoughts. > Kelly > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average > of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is > not so > great as people often believe.

Response:

Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period of time? How much time is the fine line to be considered an indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. Just a couple thoughts. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so > great as people often believe.

Response:

>> he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; >Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory >animals at all.

no cayotes here either.  Kato was born in a farmer’s barn 40 miles away from where I live.

Response:

>Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is >terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed >they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he >recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they >forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do >something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have >to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural >instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe >that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person >they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just >stating my opinion!).

According to British feline behaviorist Roger Tabor, indoor cats do exhibit far more behavioral problems than do cats with access to the outdoors. They are also more likely to be obese. >But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the >owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere >dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one >inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind >is "is it safe for the cats?"

My thinking as well. Currently we do not live in an area where it would be safe for the cats to roam free without supervision, so we take them for walks on leashes. We have put cat-proofing around our fences in the back yard, so they can go unleashed there. And they do have a great time running around chasing butterflies and lightning bugs. We do not ever let them out unsupervised. Soon we plan to move to a less busy area where we can have a much larger yard for them, and better places to take walks.  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t >live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of >speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the >end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my >cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long. >Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* >I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live.

According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so great as people often believe. >There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of >them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the >last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam >next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the >other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose >their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here.  

Yes, my last cat was indoor/outdoor and she died at 17 of liver failure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; >Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory >animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside. >Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out >after dark either. >I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the >choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised >risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the >first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to >offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be >selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give >me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one >at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they >had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. >They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass >with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all >the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching >any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather >than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them >just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, >not for them.

As I just read in an article about leash training cats, just because cats are forced to live indoors and can often adjust to it, does not mean they lose their desire or instinct to enjoy the outdoors. I believe that we as cat caretakers have an obligation to provide cats with safe access to the outdoors, whether that means leash training, cat-proof fences, outdoor enclosures, or choosing to live somewhere where it is relatively safe for a cat to go outdoors unleashed. yngver (delete "nojunk" to e-mail)

Response:

Alley Cat, While all of the five cats we have had are/were indoor-only, and I don’t intend to let any outdoors (until/if I would have a home with a completely enclosed back yard with a high, non-scalable wall or fence), I think you have made some very good points, have expressed your thoughts quite well and calmly, and I totally respect your thoughts, ideas and ideals. Signet — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside. > As I said before, I don’t argue with the people who keep their cats in > because it’s their decision.  But I choose to let mine go out and always > have, because I *am* 100% sure they can’t have such a grand life inside. > Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is > terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed > they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he > recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they > forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do > something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have > to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural > instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe > that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person > they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just > stating my opinion!). > But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the > owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere > dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one > inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind > is "is it safe for the cats?"  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t > live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of > speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the > end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my > cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long. > Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* > I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live. > There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of > them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the > last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam > next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the > other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose > their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here. > he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; > Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory > animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside. > Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out > after dark either. > I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the > choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised > risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the > first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to > offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be > selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give > me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one > at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they > had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. > They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass > with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all > the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching > any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather > than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them > just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, > not for them. > Alley Cat

Response:

> I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside.

As I said before, I don’t argue with the people who keep their cats in because it’s their decision.  But I choose to let mine go out and always have, because I *am* 100% sure they can’t have such a grand life inside. Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just stating my opinion!). But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind is "is it safe for the cats?"  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long.

Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live. There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here.   > he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote;

Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside.

Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out after dark either. I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, not for them. Alley Cat

Response:

I have 9 formally outdoor strays that are all happy indoor only cats.  I have several links that might help you with suggestions, but the best advice I can give you is to shut the door and be stronger than the cat.  They might cry and beg and whine, but you just have to outlast them.  Eventually they forget. Rescue Remedy helps during the transition, and I would strongly recommend it. For both of you. Check the links on this page.  They might help with ideas, and also to encourage you in doing the right thing: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/9352/indoors.html > I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

– Tally’s Page Cat Health & Behavior Links, Special Remembrances, Animal Issues & Photos! http://www.tallyville.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ….. After weeks of quarantine and expensive clean-up treatment for > fleas, severe earmites, coccidia and tapeworm, I decided she’d just   > have to adjust to being indoors except for walks on a leash. >I’m not advocating outdoor or indoor in particular, each to his own, but >you seem to be suggesting that the reason your cat had all this was >because it went outside?  All my cats go outside and none of them has >any of those things.  None of my cats ever has had, or needed "expensive >clean-up treatment".  They get Frontlined every ten weeks and wormed >every 4 months, and they’re healthy as they could be.  If a cat’s looked >after, going outside makes little if any difference.  It wasn’t going >outside that gave the cat you adopted all that stuff, it was neglect by >the previous owner.

My reason is kinda selfish;  I never ever want to visit a cat morgue to ID a loved kittyfriend again.  I hardly recognized gizzi;  first glance didn’t work.  I actually had to specifically look at various parts of that dead cat to come to the sudden realization that it was gizzi (his chin; neck; paws…  the broken jaw didn’t help.) I’m still not 100% decided.  He had a *great* life and saturday morning just before his death, I was outside sitting in a director’s chair reading, and watching kato and gizzi tear-ass around the front yard, running up and down the trees and having a grand old time. I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside. No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long.  My problem is that there’s a nasty street 1 1/2 blocks away that is 5 lanes wide (2+2+center median) which is a kind of drag strip as it is only 1/2 mile long and goes nowhere.  The city wanted to extend it 15 miles but never got around to it.  I had always figured that it wasn’t such a danger as it only gets about 2-3 cars per minute of traffic. Kato has always had enough sense… he spend his first 8 weeks of life avoiding being a snack for a cayote;  gizzi had me concerned even before his death because I once caught him just laying around in the middle of the side street in front of my house. I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period before I even think about allowing a kitty outside.  This time I’ll wait at least a year.  I’ll have made up my mind by then. poor gizmo!

Response:

> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

In many cases it depends on the cat’s personality.  I was able to adapt my stray kitten Ceilidth to live indoors VERY easily (I just brought her home, never let her out and she’s never wanted to go out).  On the other hand, my cat Pepe, who was indoors only from birth developed a keen interest in the outdoors and we could never keep him inside.  Eventually his curiosity cost him his life, he got out one time too many and was hit by a car.  Please give Kato a chance at being an indoor cat.  Since he was a barn cat, he may associate the outdoors with fear, cold, hunger and other unpleasant stuff.  My Ceilidth was found outside starving and with frostbite (she lost half of one ear).  I think she doesn’t want to go out because she remembers how much it sucked! — Hero, Isis, Boris and Ceilidth http://www.geocities.com/ceilidthbear/index.html Every life should have nine cats….

Response:

I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is his life.   I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to play with should help.

Response:

>Central, again, I’m so very sorry about Gizmo.  I’m glad you went out right >away and got another kitty!  Particularly, a Siamese!!!  ;o) >I’ve always kept my kitties inside, and I hope you can make the transaction >to have them all be indoor only cats too.  I’m keeping my fingers crossed >that Mr. Kato will understand!

I think mongo will be more than enough to keep fiesty ol’ kato entertained.

Response:

Our female was a mostly-outdoor cat till we adopted her at age 8.   After weeks of quarantine and expensive clean-up treatment for fleas, severe earmites, coccidia and tapeworm, I decided she’d just have to adjust to being indoors except for walks on a leash.  Amazingly, she turned out to be our easiest cat ever to train to a leash–probably because she was already used to being outside and didn’t panic the first few times I took her out like most indoor cats.  She knows when I get out her leash that it’s time to go for a walk, seems content with a half-hour tour of the yard on nice days (hates windy or cold weather and is terrified of thunder!), and never even tries to escape from the house. Try leash training both your new kitten and Kato. — One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives.  Mark Twain

Response:

With patience, they will adjust.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

Response:

Central, again, I’m so very sorry about Gizmo.  I’m glad you went out right away and got another kitty!  Particularly, a Siamese!!!  ;o) I’ve always kept my kitties inside, and I hope you can make the transaction to have them all be indoor only cats too.  I’m keeping my fingers crossed that Mr. Kato will understand! — "Just Me" Please (removeyourshoes) before replying.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

Response:

> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

All 3 of my present cats were originally either indoor/outdoor or 100% outdoor strays.  Two of them have not have any problems adapting to an indoor-only life; surprisingly, maybe, they were the two who were 100% outdoor strays (otoh, they may have decided it’s not always everything it may be cracked up to be out there.)  The one who, according to the Humane Society, was let outside, is the one who used to try to make escapes & has 3 times – for about a minute or less each time.  Point is, it *is* quite possible to have an indoor cat who wasn’t always so.  Cathy

Response:

I was never successful trying to do this.. I wish I was, because Bonnie would still be alive today if I could have.. but I am not saying its impossible.. but good luck to you.  I don’t have any tips.. hopefully someone else does. Good Luck > I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

–

Response:

> > Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an > engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything > you want to.

Exactly why I asked for a reference to any published studies. > For example, let’s say you have a study with only two > indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The > other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age > (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 > and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for > indoor/outdoor cats?

By definition the average age would be 8.  What’s your point?  Note that a study with only 2 subjects would certainly be fatally flawed. > Or would you ignore the accident causing the > younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are > capable of living, 15 years?

Once again I’m not certain of your point.  A valid study will carefully define what is doing & abide by those definitions. > In this same way, many human life > expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that > anyone checking the table would be beyond that.

Well, actually, it’s a pretty good assumption that anyone who could read a mortality table is alive  But, once again, I’m not sure of your point. Yes, some studies ignore infant mortality.  But if you know that (by actually reading the study), you can take that into account in making decisions. > Then we get into averages, means, and all the other statistician

mumbo-jumbo… I’m not sure why people seem so afraid of statistics (although it IS very boring subject to study).  Statistical studies have been responsible for enormous advances in public health (human + animal).  E.g., there would be no rabies or polio vaccines without such statistical "mumbo-jumbo".

– JR

Response:

About the Tufts study on indoor/outdoor cats versus indoor only cats and life expectancy.  There are many different types of outdoor environments.  Some cats living way out in the country and isolated from people and cars might live longer than an indoor/outdoor cat living in the city or suburbs.  People put weed killers, insecticides on their lawns – cats lick their paws, leave antifreeze around, cats can get locked in sheds by mistake, cars, etc., etc.,   You would have to also know the environment of this Tufts study.

Response:

> Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of > indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of > what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, > some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, > some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats > that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period > of time?

Well, all of these questions would be answered by a careful reading of the actual study, which is why I asked for a reference. > How much time is the fine line to be considered an indoor/outdoor cat??? A > cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back > inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat.

I don’t understand why so many people think it is not possible to do a scientific study of this question.  Of course, there are varying degrees of indoor vs. outdoor cats.  So what?  There are also lots of varyind degrees of smokers, but that didn’t stop careful studies from being done. A good study of of the indoor vs. outdoor question would define what it means by an "indoor-outdoor" cat & go from there.  A more careful study could segment cats into several classes & study each. > Kelly

– JR

Response:

Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on indoor/outdoor cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re (Signet and I) interested in.  Read the below message.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > his career due to his profession. > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the > idea. > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what > was the period of time? > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > Just a couple thoughts. > Kelly > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The >>difference is not so > > great as people often believe.

Response:

Yes I see what you mean…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an > engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything > you want to. For example, let’s say you have a study with only two > indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The > other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age > (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 > and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for > indoor/outdoor cats? Or would you ignore the accident causing the > younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are > capable of living, 15 years? In this same way, many human life > expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that > anyone checking the table would be beyond that. Then we get into > averages, means, and all the other statistician mumbo-jumbo… > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on > indoor/outdoor > cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re > (Signet and I) > interested in.  Read the below message. > > Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in > the > > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away > from > > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for > the > > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of > old > > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > > his career due to his profession. > > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get > the > > idea. > > — > > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > > > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many > varying > > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some > cats go out > > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats > go out for 6 > > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this > documented > study > > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if > so, what > > was the period of time? > > > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to > urinate/defecatate and > then comes > > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > > > Just a couple thoughts. > > > Kelly > > > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study > ever > > >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned > indoor/outdoor cats > > >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats > average 12-15 > yrs. The > > >>difference is not so > > > > great as people often believe.

Response:

Yeah, but I always get suspect when I hear statistics, as I’m an engineer and know how to play with numbers to prove most anything you want to. For example, let’s say you have a study with only two indoor/outdoor cats: one is hit by a car and dies at age 1. The other lives to 15 and dies of natural causes. Is the average age (based on this rather limited study) 8 years (the average of 15 and 1), which would indicate a rather short life for indoor/outdoor cats? Or would you ignore the accident causing the younger one’s death, and say that indoor/outdoor cats live, or are capable of living, 15 years? In this same way, many human life expectancy statistics ignore infant mortality, figuring that anyone checking the table would be beyond that. Then we get into averages, means, and all the other statistician mumbo-jumbo… — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes good question.  Does anyone have any links to studies on indoor/outdoor > cats? Or journels maybe? To get the whole idea of what we’re (Signet and I) > interested in.  Read the below message. > Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the > end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors > from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of > "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from > cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could > live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the > greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when > average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those > figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average > lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like > comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old > age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But > the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout > his career due to his profession. > I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the > idea. > — > "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism." > > Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study > of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying > degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out > for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 > hours a day,  some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented > study > used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what > was the period of time? > > How much time is the fine line to be considered an > indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to

urinate/defecatate and – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> then comes > right back  inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > > Just a couple thoughts. > > Kelly > > > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever > >>done on thelifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats > >>live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 > yrs. The > >>difference is not so > > > great as people often believe.

Response:

My first cat, Annie, was originally a barn cat.  She was 6 months old when I got her and I let her out at first but don’t anymore.  There is too much traffic and people throwing weed killers all over and spraying their aluminum siding with chemical cleaners, etc.  I started keeping her inside when I went on vacation.  My sister comes in and takes care of the cats when I’m gone she got used to it then. My other two cats only go out with their harness and leads on.  I started them young and they love going out this way.  Annie has adjusted well; once in awhile she meows  and stares at me wanting to go out.  I have a porch that is screened in and have bird feeders all around.  She loves to watch the birds and the birds seem to know she can’t get out.   Also I have cat trees for them to climb.   Siamese are supposed to be easy to leash train.  I think Kato will adjust.

Response:

> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so > great as people often believe.

Ahhh … now this sounds like it has the possibility of being a scientific study. Does anyone have a reference to the actual published study? — JR

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Doing some checking up are we??  heheheh..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average > of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is > not so > great as people often believe. > Ahhh … now this sounds like it has the possibility of being a scientific > study. > Does anyone have a reference to the actual published study? > — > JR

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Also there is the question of what causes the cat’s death in the end. For example, if cats are allowed to roam freely outdoors from the time they are young, I would expect quite a bit of "infant mortality" as they learn the hard way to stay away from cars and other such hazards. Once they learn that, they could live lives, conceivably, as long as indoor cats, except for the greater possibility of disease and such. My question is: when average lifespans are quoted for indoor/outdoor cats, do those figures include the younger deaths, or are they the average lives at which the cat dies of natural causes. Kind of like comparing a school teacher and a policeman; if each dies of old age, there’s no reason it wouldn’t be about the same age. But the policeman has a better chance of getting killed throughout his career due to his profession. I don’ think I’ve said this all that well, but hope you get the idea. — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

> Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of > indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of > what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, > some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, > some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats > that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period > of time? > How much time is the fine line to be considered an

indoor/outdoor cat???  A – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back > inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. > Just a couple thoughts. > Kelly > According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average > of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is > not so > great as people often believe.

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Just wanted to ask a question about this.  How could a study of indoor/outdoor cats be "accurate"??  There are so many varying degrees of what is considered an indoor/outdoor cat.  Some cats go out for minutes, some cats go out for an hour each day, some cats go out for 6 hours a day, some cats go out all night long.  I hope this documented study used cats that stayed out for the same period of time.  And if so, what was the period of time? How much time is the fine line to be considered an indoor/outdoor cat???  A cat that goes out JUST to urinate/defecatate and then comes right back inside, to me should be considered an indoor cat. Just a couple thoughts. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the > lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of > 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so > great as people often believe.

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>> he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; >Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory >animals at all.

no cayotes here either.  Kato was born in a farmer’s barn 40 miles away from where I live.

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>Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is >terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed >they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he >recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they >forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do >something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have >to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural >instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe >that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person >they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just >stating my opinion!).

According to British feline behaviorist Roger Tabor, indoor cats do exhibit far more behavioral problems than do cats with access to the outdoors. They are also more likely to be obese. >But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the >owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere >dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one >inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind >is "is it safe for the cats?"

My thinking as well. Currently we do not live in an area where it would be safe for the cats to roam free without supervision, so we take them for walks on leashes. We have put cat-proofing around our fences in the back yard, so they can go unleashed there. And they do have a great time running around chasing butterflies and lightning bugs. We do not ever let them out unsupervised. Soon we plan to move to a less busy area where we can have a much larger yard for them, and better places to take walks.  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t >live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of >speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the >end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my >cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long. >Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* >I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live.

According to Tufts University, the only accurate study ever done on the lifespans of cats observed that owned indoor/outdoor cats live an average of 10-12 yrs., while indoors only cats average 12-15 yrs. The difference is not so great as people often believe. >There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of >them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the >last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam >next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the >other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose >their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here.  

Yes, my last cat was indoor/outdoor and she died at 17 of liver failure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; >Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory >animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside. >Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out >after dark either. >I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the >choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised >risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the >first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to >offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be >selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give >me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one >at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they >had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. >They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass >with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all >the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching >any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather >than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them >just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, >not for them.

As I just read in an article about leash training cats, just because cats are forced to live indoors and can often adjust to it, does not mean they lose their desire or instinct to enjoy the outdoors. I believe that we as cat caretakers have an obligation to provide cats with safe access to the outdoors, whether that means leash training, cat-proof fences, outdoor enclosures, or choosing to live somewhere where it is relatively safe for a cat to go outdoors unleashed. yngver (delete "nojunk" to e-mail)

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Alley Cat, While all of the five cats we have had are/were indoor-only, and I don’t intend to let any outdoors (until/if I would have a home with a completely enclosed back yard with a high, non-scalable wall or fence), I think you have made some very good points, have expressed your thoughts quite well and calmly, and I totally respect your thoughts, ideas and ideals. Signet — "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside. > As I said before, I don’t argue with the people who keep their cats in > because it’s their decision.  But I choose to let mine go out and always > have, because I *am* 100% sure they can’t have such a grand life inside. > Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is > terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed > they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he > recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they > forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do > something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have > to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural > instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe > that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person > they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just > stating my opinion!). > But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the > owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere > dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one > inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind > is "is it safe for the cats?"  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t > live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of > speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the > end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my > cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long. > Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* > I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live. > There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of > them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the > last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam > next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the > other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose > their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here. > he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote; > Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory > animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside. > Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out > after dark either. > I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the > choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised > risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the > first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to > offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be > selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give > me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one > at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they > had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. > They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass > with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all > the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching > any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather > than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them > just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, > not for them. > Alley Cat

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> I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside.

As I said before, I don’t argue with the people who keep their cats in because it’s their decision.  But I choose to let mine go out and always have, because I *am* 100% sure they can’t have such a grand life inside. Compared with an indoor/outdoor life I believe an indoor life is terminal boredom.  Someone else here has posted about how distressed they are when you try to keep them in, so distressed that s/he recommends rescue remedy to calm them down.  And then eventually "they forget".  I have to say I find that horrifying. I’m not going to do something to any animal that’s so much against their nature that I have to use force, brainwash and virtually drug them to change their natural instincts. (Please don’t all leap on me because it’s my right to believe that as much as another’s right not to, and I’m not telling that person they don’t have the right to do it if that’s what they believe. I’m just stating my opinion!). But I’d definitely add to that that I do believe that it’s up to the owner to minimise the risk as much as possible and if I lived somewhere dangerous for cats then I’d choose not to have one rather than keep one inside all its life.  Whenever I move house the first thing in my mind is "is it safe for the cats?"  I won’t live near a main road and I won’t live on a through-road, so immediately I’ve eliminated the problem of speeding cars.  The only cars around my house are crawling slowly at the end of a cul-de-sac.  So far I’ve made the right choices because all my cats have lived well into their late teens. > No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long.

Well that’s a very global statement.  I’d certainly agree that *some* I/O don’t live as long, but that depends entirely on where you live. There are a lot of cats in the houses around me and at least half of them are over ten years old.  One of mine is almost twelve and the last one I lost was eighteen years old (kidney failure).  Dear old Sam next door is 16 and Ben across the road is 14.  I’m not sure how old the other "oldies" are.  And all my neighbours would tell you they chose their houses because of their cats too, because it’s so quiet here.   > he spend his first 8 weeks of life > avoiding being a snack for a cayote;

Again no problem because we don’t have coyotes here.  No predatory animals at all. > I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period > before I even think about allowing a kitty outside.

Me too, I’d never let them out before then and they’re never allowed out after dark either. I suppose what it comes down to is that if someone offered *me* the choice of living a possibly shorter indoor/outdoor life with minimised risks or a longer totally indoor life, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose the first rather than miss and lose all that the world outside has to offer.  And if I’d make that choice for myself I’m not going to be selfish and make the other choice for my cats just because it would give me peace of mind.  They love it so much out there and if I do lose one at least I’ll know that they truly loved and lived every day that they had rather than watching other creatures do that out of the window. They’ll have known what it’s like to lie on their backs in the grass with the sun on their tummies, to run and chase each other through all the gardens, to tear up the trees after the squirrels (never catching any!) and just to enjoy mooching through life as nature intended rather than just being observers.  I’m not going to take that away from them just because it made me feel better.  If I did I’d be doing it for me, not for them. Alley Cat

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I have 9 formally outdoor strays that are all happy indoor only cats.  I have several links that might help you with suggestions, but the best advice I can give you is to shut the door and be stronger than the cat.  They might cry and beg and whine, but you just have to outlast them.  Eventually they forget. Rescue Remedy helps during the transition, and I would strongly recommend it. For both of you. Check the links on this page.  They might help with ideas, and also to encourage you in doing the right thing: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/9352/indoors.html > I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

– Tally’s Page Cat Health & Behavior Links, Special Remembrances, Animal Issues & Photos! http://www.tallyville.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ….. After weeks of quarantine and expensive clean-up treatment for > fleas, severe earmites, coccidia and tapeworm, I decided she’d just   > have to adjust to being indoors except for walks on a leash. >I’m not advocating outdoor or indoor in particular, each to his own, but >you seem to be suggesting that the reason your cat had all this was >because it went outside?  All my cats go outside and none of them has >any of those things.  None of my cats ever has had, or needed "expensive >clean-up treatment".  They get Frontlined every ten weeks and wormed >every 4 months, and they’re healthy as they could be.  If a cat’s looked >after, going outside makes little if any difference.  It wasn’t going >outside that gave the cat you adopted all that stuff, it was neglect by >the previous owner.

My reason is kinda selfish;  I never ever want to visit a cat morgue to ID a loved kittyfriend again.  I hardly recognized gizzi;  first glance didn’t work.  I actually had to specifically look at various parts of that dead cat to come to the sudden realization that it was gizzi (his chin; neck; paws…  the broken jaw didn’t help.) I’m still not 100% decided.  He had a *great* life and saturday morning just before his death, I was outside sitting in a director’s chair reading, and watching kato and gizzi tear-ass around the front yard, running up and down the trees and having a grand old time. I’m not 100% sure that they could have such a grand life inside. No argument that I/O cats don’t live as long.  My problem is that there’s a nasty street 1 1/2 blocks away that is 5 lanes wide (2+2+center median) which is a kind of drag strip as it is only 1/2 mile long and goes nowhere.  The city wanted to extend it 15 miles but never got around to it.  I had always figured that it wasn’t such a danger as it only gets about 2-3 cars per minute of traffic. Kato has always had enough sense… he spend his first 8 weeks of life avoiding being a snack for a cayote;  gizzi had me concerned even before his death because I once caught him just laying around in the middle of the side street in front of my house. I don’t have to decide for 6 months.  That has always been the period before I even think about allowing a kitty outside.  This time I’ll wait at least a year.  I’ll have made up my mind by then. poor gizmo!

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> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

In many cases it depends on the cat’s personality.  I was able to adapt my stray kitten Ceilidth to live indoors VERY easily (I just brought her home, never let her out and she’s never wanted to go out).  On the other hand, my cat Pepe, who was indoors only from birth developed a keen interest in the outdoors and we could never keep him inside.  Eventually his curiosity cost him his life, he got out one time too many and was hit by a car.  Please give Kato a chance at being an indoor cat.  Since he was a barn cat, he may associate the outdoors with fear, cold, hunger and other unpleasant stuff.  My Ceilidth was found outside starving and with frostbite (she lost half of one ear).  I think she doesn’t want to go out because she remembers how much it sucked! — Hero, Isis, Boris and Ceilidth http://www.geocities.com/ceilidthbear/index.html Every life should have nine cats….

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I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is his life.   I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to play with should help.

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>Central, again, I’m so very sorry about Gizmo.  I’m glad you went out right >away and got another kitty!  Particularly, a Siamese!!!  ;o) >I’ve always kept my kitties inside, and I hope you can make the transaction >to have them all be indoor only cats too.  I’m keeping my fingers crossed >that Mr. Kato will understand!

I think mongo will be more than enough to keep fiesty ol’ kato entertained.

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Our female was a mostly-outdoor cat till we adopted her at age 8.   After weeks of quarantine and expensive clean-up treatment for fleas, severe earmites, coccidia and tapeworm, I decided she’d just have to adjust to being indoors except for walks on a leash.  Amazingly, she turned out to be our easiest cat ever to train to a leash–probably because she was already used to being outside and didn’t panic the first few times I took her out like most indoor cats.  She knows when I get out her leash that it’s time to go for a walk, seems content with a half-hour tour of the yard on nice days (hates windy or cold weather and is terrified of thunder!), and never even tries to escape from the house. Try leash training both your new kitten and Kato. — One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives.  Mark Twain

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With patience, they will adjust.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

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Central, again, I’m so very sorry about Gizmo.  I’m glad you went out right away and got another kitty!  Particularly, a Siamese!!!  ;o) I’ve always kept my kitties inside, and I hope you can make the transaction to have them all be indoor only cats too.  I’m keeping my fingers crossed that Mr. Kato will understand! — "Just Me" Please (removeyourshoes) before replying.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

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> I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

All 3 of my present cats were originally either indoor/outdoor or 100% outdoor strays.  Two of them have not have any problems adapting to an indoor-only life; surprisingly, maybe, they were the two who were 100% outdoor strays (otoh, they may have decided it’s not always everything it may be cracked up to be out there.)  The one who, according to the Humane Society, was let outside, is the one who used to try to make escapes & has 3 times – for about a minute or less each time.  Point is, it *is* quite possible to have an indoor cat who wasn’t always so.  Cathy

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I was never successful trying to do this.. I wish I was, because Bonnie would still be alive today if I could have.. but I am not saying its impossible.. but good luck to you.  I don’t have any tips.. hopefully someone else does. Good Luck > I’m planning on bringing in a new kitten (a siamese) and want him to be an > indoor only cat.  I don’t want what happened to gizmo to happen to him. > The problem is that kato is an indoor/outdoor cat.  He spent his first > weeks of life as a barn cat dodging cayotes and running around outdoors is > his life. > I haven’t decided wether or not to make kato an indoor only cat too.  It > would be really tough, perhaps impossible, for him.  Having a new buddy to > play with should help.

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