Please ignore my previous post
Question:
<SNIP> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are >not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their >feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a >single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. >Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one >the poster happens to be reading at the moment. >Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken >belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if >they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain >topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but >also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they >access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it >is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the >followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one >place rather than fragmented among groups. >If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the >inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when >you post.
<SNIP> Can we PLEASE stop all this BS about the sacred charter? I read this newsgroup for entertainment and to gain knowledge and insight about cats and pets in general. I would glady read posts that were slightly off topic than have to see who can post what and how they responded. For christ sakes, we have laws in the USA with real consequences for those who break them, and our jails are full and overcrowded. If you can’t enforce a law, how could you possibly force people to follow a charter? Not following a newsgroups charter has little if any consequences for the poster and only serves to foster hatered and fustration among its readers. Most people try to follow a newsgroups charter and that is what makes it all work in the long run, but you can’t force someone to abide by the charter and any effort that is spent on this detracts from the newsgroup. We could argue about charters and netiquette forever, and in the meantime 20 more spam ISP’s have cropped up that have no regard for e-mail, newsgroups, or anything else on the internet.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ><SNIP> >Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are >not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their >feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a >single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. >Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one >the poster happens to be reading at the moment. >Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken >belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if >they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain >topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but >also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they >access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it >is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the >followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one >place rather than fragmented among groups. >If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the >inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when >you post. ><SNIP> >Can we PLEASE stop all this BS about the sacred charter? I read this >newsgroup for entertainment and to gain knowledge and insight about >cats and pets in general. I would glady read posts that were slightly >off topic than have to see who can post what and how they responded.
Are charter sacred? No, but netiquette is what keeps it from getting completely out of hand. I was against splitting all the groups except this one, and one of the reasons was the difficulty of getting people to use the proper groups. No one wants to play netcop. I can only wonder why on earth a user would feel he had to post his cute story to the health and behavior group when anecdotes is a click away?,or why a social post when it will be seen by the same people in misc.? >For christ sakes, we have laws in the USA with real consequences for >those who break them, and our jails are full and overcrowded. If you >can’t enforce a law, how could you possibly force people to follow a >charter?
That argument is like the shoplifter saying,"Why pick on me? Muggers are so much worse", The mugger says," But I didn’t kill anyone!". The murderer says," But I’m not a serial killer". The serial killer says " With problems in the world like countries committing genocide….etc. > Not following a newsgroups charter has little if any consequences for the poster and only serves to foster hatered and fustration among its readers. Most people try to follow a newsgroups charter and that is what makes it all work in the long run, but you can’t force someone to abide by the charter and any effort that is spent on this detracts from the newsgroup.
I agree that most people do try to follow the charter. That’s 99 % of those who write to rec.pets.cat.*, including those who fought against the split. New users will make mistakes and no one cares. They will eventually learn by seeing what others do. I have no argument with ignoring those mistakes by newcomers. It’s when we see people saying they know better than the charter and start encouraging bad posting techniques that someone is going to step in and say something. The consequences come if things get so out of hand that someone suggests moderating the group. You might want to take a look at several groups that had to go that route recently. The flame wars threw them over the edge. Soc.support.pregnancy-loss was one, rec.gambling.blackjack was another. >We could argue about charters and netiquette forever, and in the >meantime 20 more spam ISP’s have cropped up that have no regard for >e-mail, newsgroups, or anything else on the internet.
I agree that there are better places to argue about netiquette. That suggest that anyone who wants to argue that what I have said is just my opinion go to that group and voice their concerns. Help with the net is their business. PS I have no desire to drive anyone out of this group, even if I could. Posts about ill animals or misbehaving ones are always on topic no matter how you feel about the poster. The campaign ( there is no campaign) would fail in any case. barbara and Pierre and Samantha and Tabitha wish you a Meowy Kissamouse
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>You know, Rob, the only thing that really gets to me is when whole messages >are repeated over and over again with each person responding to the same >post. I don’t really see what is the harm in "Welcoming" someone new to >the group, though.
It is sometimes very difficult to get across to users that Usenet groups are not formed for groups of people, they are formed for topics. Rec.pets.cats.health+behav is not a separate group, it is a subset of the hierarchy rec.pets.cats.* All of the groups are available to all of the readers and should be used for the purpose for which they are intended. The purpose of the split was not to divide people, but to divide topics into manageable sets. One of my objections to the split in the first place was the fact that there are always some users who will crosspost widely thinking again that they are reaching different groups of people. However the one thing that everyone agreed upon who voted, was that the health and behavior group was to be strictly for that purpose; no cute stories, no meowchat, no social messages. That group passed by the largest majority, 354 to 65. Anything that is not directly connected with health or behavior simple is offtopic and only new comers or those with little understanding of netiquette will do it. What is the harm? Probably none as long as they remain a small part. A few off-topic messages aren’t going to bother anyone, but I help moderate a group where the social messages grew to the point that there were over a thousand messages a day, only about 200 on-topic. There was no choice except to moderate and reject all social messages. We hate telling new users that their "Hi everybody, I’m new" messages can’t be posted. However other posters have rights, particularly those in Europe paying by the minute for phone connection as well as internet connection. They have a right to know that when they download a group, ALL the messages will be ontopic. As long as this group stays pretty much ontopic, no one is going to make a big thing of it, but please don’t tell new users that it is acceptable Usenet practice. Moderating the group would slow down the posting and a fast answer can be important in this group. Rob says only community is proper for welcome messages. Well we know already how Rob feels about meowchat <g> .Community certainly welcomes those messages in any style one cares to write and people will get answers. However if someone is not comfortable with that format, I see nothing in the charters to keep one from posting to misc. barbara
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >First, you say that the charter includes the following: >normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing >unwanted behaviors> >Then you say this: > The following are examples of topics >that are inappropriate here: > o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? > o What’s the best cat toy? >Excuse me, but aren’t these things very *on-topic* as far as cat behavior >goes? Perhaps the person is wondering if the behavior is "normal", or >"abnormal", but even if otherwise, it is still a post regarding cat >behavior, isn’t it? And aren’t interesting cat toys often posted as a way >to occupy your cat, and deter destructive kitty behavior? >Shelia
This is not Robyn saying how she as an individual interprets the charter. She is quoting the charter directly. Dave posts all the charters weekly I believe, but here it is below if you have missed it. This charter was agreed to overwhelmingly by the voters at the time of the split. Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one the poster happens to be reading at the moment. Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one place rather than fragmented among groups. If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when you post. barbara ( Who has yet to say "I told you so" and wondering what happened to all the pro-split people who promised to keep reminding new users of all this stuff <g>) Here’s a list of clickable links to all the groups for new members who have not found them yet. Charter of rec.pets.cats.health+behav This unmoderated group houses discussion concerning the health and behavior of domestic cats. Appropriate topics include the prevention and treatment of health problems and diseases; the care of pregnant, young, and geriatric cats; cat reproduction; heredity; first aid for cats; internal and external parasites; normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing unwanted behaviors; and theories concerning cat health, behavior, and physical characteristics. Specific examples of acceptable topics are these: o Diabetes, feline leukemia, and other diseases. o Safely eradicating fleas. o Cats clawing furniture. NOTE – Declawing flame wars are STRONGLY discouraged. o Choosing a balanced feline diet Cats displaying health problems or sudden changes in behavior should ALWAYS be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian. Advice provided in this group should NOT be accepted in lieu of such qualified care. Posters requiring quick responses during weekends and holidays should seek the nearest emergency veterinary clinic. In general, posters should direct cute cat stories and fun questions to a more appropriate group. The following are examples of topics that are inappropriate here: o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? o What’s the best cat toy? Commercial advertising in general is prohibited. Postings advocating animal cruelty in any form are not allowed. Cross-posting is discouraged. Setting "Followup-To:" a more appropriate group, if one exists, is encouraged. Rational discussions are encouraged; personal attacks and flame-wars are strongly discouraged.
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First, you say that the charter includes the following: >normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing >unwanted behaviors>
Then you say this: > The following are examples of topics >that are inappropriate here: > o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? > o What’s the best cat toy?
Excuse me, but aren’t these things very *on-topic* as far as cat behavior goes? Perhaps the person is wondering if the behavior is "normal", or "abnormal", but even if otherwise, it is still a post regarding cat behavior, isn’t it? And aren’t interesting cat toys often posted as a way to occupy your cat, and deter destructive kitty behavior? Shelia
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CHARTER: rec.pets.cats.health+behav This unmoderated group houses discussion concerning the health and behavior of domestic cats. Appropriate topics include the prevention and treatment of health problems and diseases; the care of pregnant, young, and geriatric cats; cat reproduction; heredity; first aid for cats; internal and external parasites; normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing unwanted behaviors; and theories concerning cat health, behavior, and physical characteristics. Specific examples of acceptable topics are these: o Diabetes, feline leukemia, and other diseases. o Safely eradicating fleas. o Cats clawing furniture. NOTE – Declawing flame wars are STRONGLY discouraged. o Choosing a balanced feline diet Cats displaying health problems or sudden changes in behavior should ALWAYS be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian. Advice provided in this group should NOT be accepted in lieu of such qualified care. Posters requiring quick responses during weekends and holidays should seek the nearest emergency veterinary clinic. In general, posters should direct cute cat stories and fun questions to a more appropriate group. The following are examples of topics that are inappropriate here: o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? o What’s the best cat toy? Commercial advertising in general is prohibited. Postings advocating animal cruelty in any form are not allowed. Cross-posting is discouraged. Setting "Followup-To:" a more appropriate group, if one exists, is encouraged. Rational discussions are encouraged; personal attacks and flame-wars are strongly discouraged. With the exception of PGP (and any other similar schemes) keys, no binaries are allowed in this group. Binaries should be posted in the appropriate binary group with a short message directing the reader to the file location posted here. END CHARTER.
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Hello, I do agree with David and Robyn and others who have posted under different subjects regarding off-topic posts and the charters of various newsgroups. With the enormous variety of newsgroups, there seems to be an appropriate one for every want and need. I certainly expect most posts to relate to the stated topic. Downloading tons of posts can be cumbersome and/or time-consuming and/or costly for some and it is therefore a matter of common courtesy to stick to the topic. Friendliness, kindness, and courtesy can all be incorporated in relevant posts. They are not mutually exclusive. I use the newsgroups to learn from others and to share my knowledge and experience with others . If I find someone’s philosophy or whatever particularly intriguing, I use e-mail and engage in private correspondence. At the risk of joining Robyn on the "antisocial" bus to hell, I send you all kind regards, Monica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> …There was also a time when _everyone would Welcome new people via POSTS. >No, there *never* was such a time. Four years ago, the readership of >rec.pets.cats was estimated at over 80,000 subscribers. Today, with >the explosive growth of consumer Internet access, the number is certainly >much higher. >Considering the sheer number of subscribers and the high rate at which >they come and go, it is absurd to personally greet each new subscriber >through the newsgroup. If we were to do as you suggest, this newsgroup >would be flooded with off-topic messages and would become unusable for >any practical discussion. >– >David Thomas
(david-at-micro-dot-ti-dot-com) >Texas Instruments, Houston
(281)-274-2347
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> …There was also a time when _everyone would Welcome new people via POSTS.
No, there *never* was such a time. Four years ago, the readership of rec.pets.cats was estimated at over 80,000 subscribers. Today, with the explosive growth of consumer Internet access, the number is certainly much higher. Considering the sheer number of subscribers and the high rate at which they come and go, it is absurd to personally greet each new subscriber through the newsgroup. If we were to do as you suggest, this newsgroup would be flooded with off-topic messages and would become unusable for any practical discussion. — David Thomas (david-at-micro-dot-ti-dot-com) Texas Instruments, Houston (281)-274-2347
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Sorry to cause such a stir, but I’ve learned a lot of useful information today. Things like "meowchat" and "charter" and "off-topic" topics. Who’d have thought?? I certainly didn’t mean to do anything like this. All I wanted to know is why milk is so bad for kitties. Asking from Tora’s perspective was something I’ve never done before, nor will I do again anytime soon. Whew. 
Barbara: I use Newswatcher 2.3.5 and haven’t yet figured out a way to kill a message. Please let me know if you know anything about this software. Thanks. chow chow chow, beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >>milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >>enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >>*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >>beth & Tora >>You and your human can visit Tora at: >>http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html >Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was >created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us >find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to >the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to >health and behavior of course) that you’d like. >I believe you will want to check the charter. A question about milk for >cats is not off-topic. There is no restriction on writing style, nor >would pretending the post is from a cat necessarily qualify it as >meowchat. >What is important is that a post be about health or behavior. What are >off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the various >social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or >anecdotes. >barbara >P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have >posted in error.
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>x-no-archive: yes >Hello All: >It’s a sad day, when we cannot welcome new people via _any group! These >groups are meant for discussion of felines, I know. However, all of us can >try to inject "A little kindness with civility."
Unkindness and rudeness are categorized, IMHO, as "it takes all kinds." If it gets to where certain folks are consistently annoying, I sometimes use my "Kill Author" filter in my newsreader. It’s unfortunate, though. >Since when is welcoming people ‘Off-Topic?" No matter what the group title, >welcoming new people is needed. It’s also important [IMHO], to try very hard >to speak to each other kindly. Internal fighting/arguing isn’t what these >groups are supposed to exemplify. How does it look to the younger generation >when we are setting a nasty example?
Being courteous spans *all* generations. So do manners. >Understandably certain subjects become very passionate. However, since we are >responsible for "posting," why can’t we all just stand back and _read what >we’re sending _before hitting the send key? I don’t feel it’s ever too late >to salvage kindness sans bitterness. How about you?
My newsreader puts up some sort of warning phrase before I can actually post. When replying to something aggrevating, I often write a response to "get it out of my system," then trash it. It makes me feel better and no one is offended. BTW, my newsreader does not have a way of killing posts after I send it. It hits my server immediately as I’ve seen happen before. What would help prevent duplicate postings would be to do a search on certain subject words to make sure no one else has asked about your topic. There are sites for netiquette out there, if folks want to find them. Only thing is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink." Best wishes to you, beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Regards, >Barb.[Bjp] >"Hugging Has No Harmful Side Effects" > ~Diana, Princess of Wales~ > ~ Please Visit My Webpage At: > http://inferno.cshore.com/bpfrommer <–[Click] >-> There’s so much to see and read. Favorite Links, > Diabetes Info, Hello & Welcome Site, much more!
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:> :>P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have :>posted in error. this works so poorly (and is ignored by many ISPs, to boot) that it makes *far more sense*, haha, to think twice before you hit the send button, however it works. — rob
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(something i’ve been thinking for some time) :…What are off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the :various social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or :anecdotes. i actually think they don’t even really belong there, for the most part. here’s something i wrote but didn’t post when it *got especially bad "for just a little few days" back there*. i didn’t send it in, conserving that old "band width", as they say. (it’s _bandwidth_, sweetie! and quite besides, has nothing to do with why it is so annoying and troublesome.) hi! my name is rob and my cat is lennie. but you knew that. it certainly is lovely to see all this comaraderie and warm personal messages on the rec.pets.cats.* newsgroups. if you’ve passed Usenet 1.01, however, and read the charters carefully, you will conclude i am sure that the only group where this kind of drivel is wanted or needed is rec.pets.cats.community. some time ago we spent a few months and a lot of energy taking apart rec.pets.cats, the original one true cat newsgroup. at first i didn’t really want a split at all, but now that we’ve had some experience with it i must say i like it. it has really helped focus things, and has largely eliminated (or segregated) most of the really annoying abuse that was clogging rec.pets.cats and nearly brought it to its knees. too bad about all the good people who left in disgust before we implemented the group-saving split. so, please. "be friendly". chat. post drivel. use the news mechanism for things email would be better for. if your email server (?) is down, by all means use the news to get all your important correspondence up to date. post "me too" and "atta boy" messages to your heart’s content. tear apart trolls before you know anything more than that you didn’t like something you think they may have said. quote the entire text of an earlier message and add one line. post HTML unwrapped lines to 256 characters. and if you can hack it, try MEOWCHAT. people seem to have the time to have fun with that, too. but at least do these things on the one part of this hierarchy where it is welcome, expected and approved: rec.pets.community. play here if you want, but try and make some effort to figure out how news really works and why some of us are so glad a place like rec.pets.cats.community exists! — rob
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>P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have >posted in error.
When I send a message, it is gone and on the ng so fast- within a minute, that I can’t retrieve any of them. I just make sure I proofread *before* I hit send. It’s not always perfect, but I try. Shelia
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:Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was :created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us :find incredibly stupid. but that wasn’t MEOWCHAT! it was perfectly grammatical English, the kind of post we all know our cats would be making if we let ‘em. true MEOWCHAT is a pathetic human abberation, for people with unusual language skills and, i suspect, way too much time on their hands! — rob
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >beth & Tora >You and your human can visit Tora at: >http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html >Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was >created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us >find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to >the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to >health and behavior of course) that you’d like.
I believe you will want to check the charter. A question about milk for cats is not off-topic. There is no restriction on writing style, nor would pretending the post is from a cat necessarily qualify it as meowchat. What is important is that a post be about health or behavior. What are off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the various social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or anecdotes. barbara P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have posted in error.
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[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time *I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html
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>[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >beth & Tora >You and your human can visit Tora at: >http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html
Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to health and behavior of course) that you’d like.
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<SNIP> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are >not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their >feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a >single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. >Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one >the poster happens to be reading at the moment. >Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken >belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if >they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain >topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but >also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they >access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it >is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the >followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one >place rather than fragmented among groups. >If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the >inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when >you post.
<SNIP> Can we PLEASE stop all this BS about the sacred charter? I read this newsgroup for entertainment and to gain knowledge and insight about cats and pets in general. I would glady read posts that were slightly off topic than have to see who can post what and how they responded. For christ sakes, we have laws in the USA with real consequences for those who break them, and our jails are full and overcrowded. If you can’t enforce a law, how could you possibly force people to follow a charter? Not following a newsgroups charter has little if any consequences for the poster and only serves to foster hatered and fustration among its readers. Most people try to follow a newsgroups charter and that is what makes it all work in the long run, but you can’t force someone to abide by the charter and any effort that is spent on this detracts from the newsgroup. We could argue about charters and netiquette forever, and in the meantime 20 more spam ISP’s have cropped up that have no regard for e-mail, newsgroups, or anything else on the internet.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ><SNIP> >Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are >not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their >feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a >single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. >Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one >the poster happens to be reading at the moment. >Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken >belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if >they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain >topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but >also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they >access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it >is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the >followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one >place rather than fragmented among groups. >If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the >inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when >you post. ><SNIP> >Can we PLEASE stop all this BS about the sacred charter? I read this >newsgroup for entertainment and to gain knowledge and insight about >cats and pets in general. I would glady read posts that were slightly >off topic than have to see who can post what and how they responded.
Are charter sacred? No, but netiquette is what keeps it from getting completely out of hand. I was against splitting all the groups except this one, and one of the reasons was the difficulty of getting people to use the proper groups. No one wants to play netcop. I can only wonder why on earth a user would feel he had to post his cute story to the health and behavior group when anecdotes is a click away?,or why a social post when it will be seen by the same people in misc.? >For christ sakes, we have laws in the USA with real consequences for >those who break them, and our jails are full and overcrowded. If you >can’t enforce a law, how could you possibly force people to follow a >charter?
That argument is like the shoplifter saying,"Why pick on me? Muggers are so much worse", The mugger says," But I didn’t kill anyone!". The murderer says," But I’m not a serial killer". The serial killer says " With problems in the world like countries committing genocide….etc. > Not following a newsgroups charter has little if any consequences for the poster and only serves to foster hatered and fustration among its readers. Most people try to follow a newsgroups charter and that is what makes it all work in the long run, but you can’t force someone to abide by the charter and any effort that is spent on this detracts from the newsgroup.
I agree that most people do try to follow the charter. That’s 99 % of those who write to rec.pets.cat.*, including those who fought against the split. New users will make mistakes and no one cares. They will eventually learn by seeing what others do. I have no argument with ignoring those mistakes by newcomers. It’s when we see people saying they know better than the charter and start encouraging bad posting techniques that someone is going to step in and say something. The consequences come if things get so out of hand that someone suggests moderating the group. You might want to take a look at several groups that had to go that route recently. The flame wars threw them over the edge. Soc.support.pregnancy-loss was one, rec.gambling.blackjack was another. >We could argue about charters and netiquette forever, and in the >meantime 20 more spam ISP’s have cropped up that have no regard for >e-mail, newsgroups, or anything else on the internet.
I agree that there are better places to argue about netiquette. That suggest that anyone who wants to argue that what I have said is just my opinion go to that group and voice their concerns. Help with the net is their business. PS I have no desire to drive anyone out of this group, even if I could. Posts about ill animals or misbehaving ones are always on topic no matter how you feel about the poster. The campaign ( there is no campaign) would fail in any case. barbara and Pierre and Samantha and Tabitha wish you a Meowy Kissamouse
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>You know, Rob, the only thing that really gets to me is when whole messages >are repeated over and over again with each person responding to the same >post. I don’t really see what is the harm in "Welcoming" someone new to >the group, though.
It is sometimes very difficult to get across to users that Usenet groups are not formed for groups of people, they are formed for topics. Rec.pets.cats.health+behav is not a separate group, it is a subset of the hierarchy rec.pets.cats.* All of the groups are available to all of the readers and should be used for the purpose for which they are intended. The purpose of the split was not to divide people, but to divide topics into manageable sets. One of my objections to the split in the first place was the fact that there are always some users who will crosspost widely thinking again that they are reaching different groups of people. However the one thing that everyone agreed upon who voted, was that the health and behavior group was to be strictly for that purpose; no cute stories, no meowchat, no social messages. That group passed by the largest majority, 354 to 65. Anything that is not directly connected with health or behavior simple is offtopic and only new comers or those with little understanding of netiquette will do it. What is the harm? Probably none as long as they remain a small part. A few off-topic messages aren’t going to bother anyone, but I help moderate a group where the social messages grew to the point that there were over a thousand messages a day, only about 200 on-topic. There was no choice except to moderate and reject all social messages. We hate telling new users that their "Hi everybody, I’m new" messages can’t be posted. However other posters have rights, particularly those in Europe paying by the minute for phone connection as well as internet connection. They have a right to know that when they download a group, ALL the messages will be ontopic. As long as this group stays pretty much ontopic, no one is going to make a big thing of it, but please don’t tell new users that it is acceptable Usenet practice. Moderating the group would slow down the posting and a fast answer can be important in this group. Rob says only community is proper for welcome messages. Well we know already how Rob feels about meowchat <g> .Community certainly welcomes those messages in any style one cares to write and people will get answers. However if someone is not comfortable with that format, I see nothing in the charters to keep one from posting to misc. barbara
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >First, you say that the charter includes the following: >normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing >unwanted behaviors> >Then you say this: > The following are examples of topics >that are inappropriate here: > o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? > o What’s the best cat toy? >Excuse me, but aren’t these things very *on-topic* as far as cat behavior >goes? Perhaps the person is wondering if the behavior is "normal", or >"abnormal", but even if otherwise, it is still a post regarding cat >behavior, isn’t it? And aren’t interesting cat toys often posted as a way >to occupy your cat, and deter destructive kitty behavior? >Shelia
This is not Robyn saying how she as an individual interprets the charter. She is quoting the charter directly. Dave posts all the charters weekly I believe, but here it is below if you have missed it. This charter was agreed to overwhelmingly by the voters at the time of the split. Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one the poster happens to be reading at the moment. Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one place rather than fragmented among groups. If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when you post. barbara ( Who has yet to say "I told you so" and wondering what happened to all the pro-split people who promised to keep reminding new users of all this stuff <g>) Here’s a list of clickable links to all the groups for new members who have not found them yet. Charter of rec.pets.cats.health+behav This unmoderated group houses discussion concerning the health and behavior of domestic cats. Appropriate topics include the prevention and treatment of health problems and diseases; the care of pregnant, young, and geriatric cats; cat reproduction; heredity; first aid for cats; internal and external parasites; normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing unwanted behaviors; and theories concerning cat health, behavior, and physical characteristics. Specific examples of acceptable topics are these: o Diabetes, feline leukemia, and other diseases. o Safely eradicating fleas. o Cats clawing furniture. NOTE – Declawing flame wars are STRONGLY discouraged. o Choosing a balanced feline diet Cats displaying health problems or sudden changes in behavior should ALWAYS be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian. Advice provided in this group should NOT be accepted in lieu of such qualified care. Posters requiring quick responses during weekends and holidays should seek the nearest emergency veterinary clinic. In general, posters should direct cute cat stories and fun questions to a more appropriate group. The following are examples of topics that are inappropriate here: o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? o What’s the best cat toy? Commercial advertising in general is prohibited. Postings advocating animal cruelty in any form are not allowed. Cross-posting is discouraged. Setting "Followup-To:" a more appropriate group, if one exists, is encouraged. Rational discussions are encouraged; personal attacks and flame-wars are strongly discouraged.
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First, you say that the charter includes the following: >normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing >unwanted behaviors>
Then you say this: > The following are examples of topics >that are inappropriate here: > o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? > o What’s the best cat toy?
Excuse me, but aren’t these things very *on-topic* as far as cat behavior goes? Perhaps the person is wondering if the behavior is "normal", or "abnormal", but even if otherwise, it is still a post regarding cat behavior, isn’t it? And aren’t interesting cat toys often posted as a way to occupy your cat, and deter destructive kitty behavior? Shelia
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CHARTER: rec.pets.cats.health+behav This unmoderated group houses discussion concerning the health and behavior of domestic cats. Appropriate topics include the prevention and treatment of health problems and diseases; the care of pregnant, young, and geriatric cats; cat reproduction; heredity; first aid for cats; internal and external parasites; normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing unwanted behaviors; and theories concerning cat health, behavior, and physical characteristics. Specific examples of acceptable topics are these: o Diabetes, feline leukemia, and other diseases. o Safely eradicating fleas. o Cats clawing furniture. NOTE – Declawing flame wars are STRONGLY discouraged. o Choosing a balanced feline diet Cats displaying health problems or sudden changes in behavior should ALWAYS be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian. Advice provided in this group should NOT be accepted in lieu of such qualified care. Posters requiring quick responses during weekends and holidays should seek the nearest emergency veterinary clinic. In general, posters should direct cute cat stories and fun questions to a more appropriate group. The following are examples of topics that are inappropriate here: o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? o What’s the best cat toy? Commercial advertising in general is prohibited. Postings advocating animal cruelty in any form are not allowed. Cross-posting is discouraged. Setting "Followup-To:" a more appropriate group, if one exists, is encouraged. Rational discussions are encouraged; personal attacks and flame-wars are strongly discouraged. With the exception of PGP (and any other similar schemes) keys, no binaries are allowed in this group. Binaries should be posted in the appropriate binary group with a short message directing the reader to the file location posted here. END CHARTER.
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Hello, I do agree with David and Robyn and others who have posted under different subjects regarding off-topic posts and the charters of various newsgroups. With the enormous variety of newsgroups, there seems to be an appropriate one for every want and need. I certainly expect most posts to relate to the stated topic. Downloading tons of posts can be cumbersome and/or time-consuming and/or costly for some and it is therefore a matter of common courtesy to stick to the topic. Friendliness, kindness, and courtesy can all be incorporated in relevant posts. They are not mutually exclusive. I use the newsgroups to learn from others and to share my knowledge and experience with others . If I find someone’s philosophy or whatever particularly intriguing, I use e-mail and engage in private correspondence. At the risk of joining Robyn on the "antisocial" bus to hell, I send you all kind regards, Monica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> …There was also a time when _everyone would Welcome new people via POSTS. >No, there *never* was such a time. Four years ago, the readership of >rec.pets.cats was estimated at over 80,000 subscribers. Today, with >the explosive growth of consumer Internet access, the number is certainly >much higher. >Considering the sheer number of subscribers and the high rate at which >they come and go, it is absurd to personally greet each new subscriber >through the newsgroup. If we were to do as you suggest, this newsgroup >would be flooded with off-topic messages and would become unusable for >any practical discussion. >– >David Thomas
(david-at-micro-dot-ti-dot-com) >Texas Instruments, Houston
(281)-274-2347
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> …There was also a time when _everyone would Welcome new people via POSTS.
No, there *never* was such a time. Four years ago, the readership of rec.pets.cats was estimated at over 80,000 subscribers. Today, with the explosive growth of consumer Internet access, the number is certainly much higher. Considering the sheer number of subscribers and the high rate at which they come and go, it is absurd to personally greet each new subscriber through the newsgroup. If we were to do as you suggest, this newsgroup would be flooded with off-topic messages and would become unusable for any practical discussion. — David Thomas (david-at-micro-dot-ti-dot-com) Texas Instruments, Houston (281)-274-2347
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Sorry to cause such a stir, but I’ve learned a lot of useful information today. Things like "meowchat" and "charter" and "off-topic" topics. Who’d have thought?? I certainly didn’t mean to do anything like this. All I wanted to know is why milk is so bad for kitties. Asking from Tora’s perspective was something I’ve never done before, nor will I do again anytime soon. Whew. Barbara: I use Newswatcher 2.3.5 and haven’t yet figured out a way to kill a message. Please let me know if you know anything about this software. Thanks. chow chow chow, beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >>milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >>enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >>*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >>beth & Tora >>You and your human can visit Tora at: >>http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html >Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was >created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us >find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to >the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to >health and behavior of course) that you’d like. >I believe you will want to check the charter. A question about milk for >cats is not off-topic. There is no restriction on writing style, nor >would pretending the post is from a cat necessarily qualify it as >meowchat. >What is important is that a post be about health or behavior. What are >off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the various >social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or >anecdotes. >barbara >P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have >posted in error.
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>x-no-archive: yes >Hello All: >It’s a sad day, when we cannot welcome new people via _any group! These >groups are meant for discussion of felines, I know. However, all of us can >try to inject "A little kindness with civility."
Unkindness and rudeness are categorized, IMHO, as "it takes all kinds." If it gets to where certain folks are consistently annoying, I sometimes use my "Kill Author" filter in my newsreader. It’s unfortunate, though. >Since when is welcoming people ‘Off-Topic?" No matter what the group title, >welcoming new people is needed. It’s also important [IMHO], to try very hard >to speak to each other kindly. Internal fighting/arguing isn’t what these >groups are supposed to exemplify. How does it look to the younger generation >when we are setting a nasty example?
Being courteous spans *all* generations. So do manners. >Understandably certain subjects become very passionate. However, since we are >responsible for "posting," why can’t we all just stand back and _read what >we’re sending _before hitting the send key? I don’t feel it’s ever too late >to salvage kindness sans bitterness. How about you?
My newsreader puts up some sort of warning phrase before I can actually post. When replying to something aggrevating, I often write a response to "get it out of my system," then trash it. It makes me feel better and no one is offended. BTW, my newsreader does not have a way of killing posts after I send it. It hits my server immediately as I’ve seen happen before. What would help prevent duplicate postings would be to do a search on certain subject words to make sure no one else has asked about your topic. There are sites for netiquette out there, if folks want to find them. Only thing is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink." Best wishes to you, beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Regards, >Barb.[Bjp] >"Hugging Has No Harmful Side Effects" > ~Diana, Princess of Wales~ > ~ Please Visit My Webpage At: > http://inferno.cshore.com/bpfrommer <–[Click] >-> There’s so much to see and read. Favorite Links, > Diabetes Info, Hello & Welcome Site, much more!
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:> :>P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have :>posted in error. this works so poorly (and is ignored by many ISPs, to boot) that it makes *far more sense*, haha, to think twice before you hit the send button, however it works. — rob
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(something i’ve been thinking for some time) :…What are off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the :various social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or :anecdotes. i actually think they don’t even really belong there, for the most part. here’s something i wrote but didn’t post when it *got especially bad "for just a little few days" back there*. i didn’t send it in, conserving that old "band width", as they say. (it’s _bandwidth_, sweetie! and quite besides, has nothing to do with why it is so annoying and troublesome.) hi! my name is rob and my cat is lennie. but you knew that. it certainly is lovely to see all this comaraderie and warm personal messages on the rec.pets.cats.* newsgroups. if you’ve passed Usenet 1.01, however, and read the charters carefully, you will conclude i am sure that the only group where this kind of drivel is wanted or needed is rec.pets.cats.community. some time ago we spent a few months and a lot of energy taking apart rec.pets.cats, the original one true cat newsgroup. at first i didn’t really want a split at all, but now that we’ve had some experience with it i must say i like it. it has really helped focus things, and has largely eliminated (or segregated) most of the really annoying abuse that was clogging rec.pets.cats and nearly brought it to its knees. too bad about all the good people who left in disgust before we implemented the group-saving split. so, please. "be friendly". chat. post drivel. use the news mechanism for things email would be better for. if your email server (?) is down, by all means use the news to get all your important correspondence up to date. post "me too" and "atta boy" messages to your heart’s content. tear apart trolls before you know anything more than that you didn’t like something you think they may have said. quote the entire text of an earlier message and add one line. post HTML unwrapped lines to 256 characters. and if you can hack it, try MEOWCHAT. people seem to have the time to have fun with that, too. but at least do these things on the one part of this hierarchy where it is welcome, expected and approved: rec.pets.community. play here if you want, but try and make some effort to figure out how news really works and why some of us are so glad a place like rec.pets.cats.community exists! — rob
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>P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have >posted in error.
When I send a message, it is gone and on the ng so fast- within a minute, that I can’t retrieve any of them. I just make sure I proofread *before* I hit send. It’s not always perfect, but I try. Shelia
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:Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was :created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us :find incredibly stupid. but that wasn’t MEOWCHAT! it was perfectly grammatical English, the kind of post we all know our cats would be making if we let ‘em. true MEOWCHAT is a pathetic human abberation, for people with unusual language skills and, i suspect, way too much time on their hands! — rob
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >beth & Tora >You and your human can visit Tora at: >http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html >Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was >created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us >find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to >the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to >health and behavior of course) that you’d like.
I believe you will want to check the charter. A question about milk for cats is not off-topic. There is no restriction on writing style, nor would pretending the post is from a cat necessarily qualify it as meowchat. What is important is that a post be about health or behavior. What are off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the various social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or anecdotes. barbara P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have posted in error.
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[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time *I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html
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>[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >beth & Tora >You and your human can visit Tora at: >http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html
Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to health and behavior of course) that you’d like.
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<SNIP> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are >not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their >feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a >single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. >Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one >the poster happens to be reading at the moment. >Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken >belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if >they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain >topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but >also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they >access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it >is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the >followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one >place rather than fragmented among groups. >If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the >inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when >you post.
<SNIP> Can we PLEASE stop all this BS about the sacred charter? I read this newsgroup for entertainment and to gain knowledge and insight about cats and pets in general. I would glady read posts that were slightly off topic than have to see who can post what and how they responded. For christ sakes, we have laws in the USA with real consequences for those who break them, and our jails are full and overcrowded. If you can’t enforce a law, how could you possibly force people to follow a charter? Not following a newsgroups charter has little if any consequences for the poster and only serves to foster hatered and fustration among its readers. Most people try to follow a newsgroups charter and that is what makes it all work in the long run, but you can’t force someone to abide by the charter and any effort that is spent on this detracts from the newsgroup. We could argue about charters and netiquette forever, and in the meantime 20 more spam ISP’s have cropped up that have no regard for e-mail, newsgroups, or anything else on the internet.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ><SNIP> >Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are >not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their >feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a >single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. >Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one >the poster happens to be reading at the moment. >Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken >belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if >they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain >topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but >also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they >access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it >is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the >followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one >place rather than fragmented among groups. >If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the >inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when >you post. ><SNIP> >Can we PLEASE stop all this BS about the sacred charter? I read this >newsgroup for entertainment and to gain knowledge and insight about >cats and pets in general. I would glady read posts that were slightly >off topic than have to see who can post what and how they responded.
Are charter sacred? No, but netiquette is what keeps it from getting completely out of hand. I was against splitting all the groups except this one, and one of the reasons was the difficulty of getting people to use the proper groups. No one wants to play netcop. I can only wonder why on earth a user would feel he had to post his cute story to the health and behavior group when anecdotes is a click away?,or why a social post when it will be seen by the same people in misc.? >For christ sakes, we have laws in the USA with real consequences for >those who break them, and our jails are full and overcrowded. If you >can’t enforce a law, how could you possibly force people to follow a >charter?
That argument is like the shoplifter saying,"Why pick on me? Muggers are so much worse", The mugger says," But I didn’t kill anyone!". The murderer says," But I’m not a serial killer". The serial killer says " With problems in the world like countries committing genocide….etc. > Not following a newsgroups charter has little if any consequences for the poster and only serves to foster hatered and fustration among its readers. Most people try to follow a newsgroups charter and that is what makes it all work in the long run, but you can’t force someone to abide by the charter and any effort that is spent on this detracts from the newsgroup.
I agree that most people do try to follow the charter. That’s 99 % of those who write to rec.pets.cat.*, including those who fought against the split. New users will make mistakes and no one cares. They will eventually learn by seeing what others do. I have no argument with ignoring those mistakes by newcomers. It’s when we see people saying they know better than the charter and start encouraging bad posting techniques that someone is going to step in and say something. The consequences come if things get so out of hand that someone suggests moderating the group. You might want to take a look at several groups that had to go that route recently. The flame wars threw them over the edge. Soc.support.pregnancy-loss was one, rec.gambling.blackjack was another. >We could argue about charters and netiquette forever, and in the >meantime 20 more spam ISP’s have cropped up that have no regard for >e-mail, newsgroups, or anything else on the internet.
I agree that there are better places to argue about netiquette. That suggest that anyone who wants to argue that what I have said is just my opinion go to that group and voice their concerns. Help with the net is their business. PS I have no desire to drive anyone out of this group, even if I could. Posts about ill animals or misbehaving ones are always on topic no matter how you feel about the poster. The campaign ( there is no campaign) would fail in any case. barbara and Pierre and Samantha and Tabitha wish you a Meowy Kissamouse
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>You know, Rob, the only thing that really gets to me is when whole messages >are repeated over and over again with each person responding to the same >post. I don’t really see what is the harm in "Welcoming" someone new to >the group, though.
It is sometimes very difficult to get across to users that Usenet groups are not formed for groups of people, they are formed for topics. Rec.pets.cats.health+behav is not a separate group, it is a subset of the hierarchy rec.pets.cats.* All of the groups are available to all of the readers and should be used for the purpose for which they are intended. The purpose of the split was not to divide people, but to divide topics into manageable sets. One of my objections to the split in the first place was the fact that there are always some users who will crosspost widely thinking again that they are reaching different groups of people. However the one thing that everyone agreed upon who voted, was that the health and behavior group was to be strictly for that purpose; no cute stories, no meowchat, no social messages. That group passed by the largest majority, 354 to 65. Anything that is not directly connected with health or behavior simple is offtopic and only new comers or those with little understanding of netiquette will do it. What is the harm? Probably none as long as they remain a small part. A few off-topic messages aren’t going to bother anyone, but I help moderate a group where the social messages grew to the point that there were over a thousand messages a day, only about 200 on-topic. There was no choice except to moderate and reject all social messages. We hate telling new users that their "Hi everybody, I’m new" messages can’t be posted. However other posters have rights, particularly those in Europe paying by the minute for phone connection as well as internet connection. They have a right to know that when they download a group, ALL the messages will be ontopic. As long as this group stays pretty much ontopic, no one is going to make a big thing of it, but please don’t tell new users that it is acceptable Usenet practice. Moderating the group would slow down the posting and a fast answer can be important in this group. Rob says only community is proper for welcome messages. Well we know already how Rob feels about meowchat <g> .Community certainly welcomes those messages in any style one cares to write and people will get answers. However if someone is not comfortable with that format, I see nothing in the charters to keep one from posting to misc. barbara
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >First, you say that the charter includes the following: >normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing >unwanted behaviors> >Then you say this: > The following are examples of topics >that are inappropriate here: > o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? > o What’s the best cat toy? >Excuse me, but aren’t these things very *on-topic* as far as cat behavior >goes? Perhaps the person is wondering if the behavior is "normal", or >"abnormal", but even if otherwise, it is still a post regarding cat >behavior, isn’t it? And aren’t interesting cat toys often posted as a way >to occupy your cat, and deter destructive kitty behavior? >Shelia
This is not Robyn saying how she as an individual interprets the charter. She is quoting the charter directly. Dave posts all the charters weekly I believe, but here it is below if you have missed it. This charter was agreed to overwhelmingly by the voters at the time of the split. Many times new users think that newsgroups are groups of people. They are not groups of people, but groups of topics. Everyone writing about their feline is a member of the whole hierarchy rec.pets.cats.*, not just a single group. Many members subscribe to several if not all the groups. Messages should be posted to the appropriate group, not just to the one the poster happens to be reading at the moment. Sometimes new users crosspost to a number of groups in the mistaken belief they will be reaching different people. Perhaps they may, but if they do it is because those people have chosen NOT to read certain topics. Some people pay by the minute not only for internet access but also for their phone connection. They have a right to know that when they access a newsgroup, the messages will be on-topic. Crosspost only if it is on-topic for each group ( read the charters) and then set the followups back to one group so that the followup discussion stays in one place rather than fragmented among groups. If you see that someone has crossposted inappropriately, erase the inappropriate groups from the newsgroup line on you message window when you post. barbara ( Who has yet to say "I told you so" and wondering what happened to all the pro-split people who promised to keep reminding new users of all this stuff <g>) Here’s a list of clickable links to all the groups for new members who have not found them yet. Charter of rec.pets.cats.health+behav This unmoderated group houses discussion concerning the health and behavior of domestic cats. Appropriate topics include the prevention and treatment of health problems and diseases; the care of pregnant, young, and geriatric cats; cat reproduction; heredity; first aid for cats; internal and external parasites; normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing unwanted behaviors; and theories concerning cat health, behavior, and physical characteristics. Specific examples of acceptable topics are these: o Diabetes, feline leukemia, and other diseases. o Safely eradicating fleas. o Cats clawing furniture. NOTE – Declawing flame wars are STRONGLY discouraged. o Choosing a balanced feline diet Cats displaying health problems or sudden changes in behavior should ALWAYS be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian. Advice provided in this group should NOT be accepted in lieu of such qualified care. Posters requiring quick responses during weekends and holidays should seek the nearest emergency veterinary clinic. In general, posters should direct cute cat stories and fun questions to a more appropriate group. The following are examples of topics that are inappropriate here: o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? o What’s the best cat toy? Commercial advertising in general is prohibited. Postings advocating animal cruelty in any form are not allowed. Cross-posting is discouraged. Setting "Followup-To:" a more appropriate group, if one exists, is encouraged. Rational discussions are encouraged; personal attacks and flame-wars are strongly discouraged.
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First, you say that the charter includes the following: >normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing >unwanted behaviors>
Then you say this: > The following are examples of topics >that are inappropriate here: > o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? > o What’s the best cat toy?
Excuse me, but aren’t these things very *on-topic* as far as cat behavior goes? Perhaps the person is wondering if the behavior is "normal", or "abnormal", but even if otherwise, it is still a post regarding cat behavior, isn’t it? And aren’t interesting cat toys often posted as a way to occupy your cat, and deter destructive kitty behavior? Shelia
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CHARTER: rec.pets.cats.health+behav This unmoderated group houses discussion concerning the health and behavior of domestic cats. Appropriate topics include the prevention and treatment of health problems and diseases; the care of pregnant, young, and geriatric cats; cat reproduction; heredity; first aid for cats; internal and external parasites; normal and abnormal behaviors in cats; techniques for changing unwanted behaviors; and theories concerning cat health, behavior, and physical characteristics. Specific examples of acceptable topics are these: o Diabetes, feline leukemia, and other diseases. o Safely eradicating fleas. o Cats clawing furniture. NOTE – Declawing flame wars are STRONGLY discouraged. o Choosing a balanced feline diet Cats displaying health problems or sudden changes in behavior should ALWAYS be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian. Advice provided in this group should NOT be accepted in lieu of such qualified care. Posters requiring quick responses during weekends and holidays should seek the nearest emergency veterinary clinic. In general, posters should direct cute cat stories and fun questions to a more appropriate group. The following are examples of topics that are inappropriate here: o My cat Fluffy does cute thing X, does yours? o What’s the best cat toy? Commercial advertising in general is prohibited. Postings advocating animal cruelty in any form are not allowed. Cross-posting is discouraged. Setting "Followup-To:" a more appropriate group, if one exists, is encouraged. Rational discussions are encouraged; personal attacks and flame-wars are strongly discouraged. With the exception of PGP (and any other similar schemes) keys, no binaries are allowed in this group. Binaries should be posted in the appropriate binary group with a short message directing the reader to the file location posted here. END CHARTER.
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Hello, I do agree with David and Robyn and others who have posted under different subjects regarding off-topic posts and the charters of various newsgroups. With the enormous variety of newsgroups, there seems to be an appropriate one for every want and need. I certainly expect most posts to relate to the stated topic. Downloading tons of posts can be cumbersome and/or time-consuming and/or costly for some and it is therefore a matter of common courtesy to stick to the topic. Friendliness, kindness, and courtesy can all be incorporated in relevant posts. They are not mutually exclusive. I use the newsgroups to learn from others and to share my knowledge and experience with others . If I find someone’s philosophy or whatever particularly intriguing, I use e-mail and engage in private correspondence. At the risk of joining Robyn on the "antisocial" bus to hell, I send you all kind regards, Monica
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> …There was also a time when _everyone would Welcome new people via POSTS. >No, there *never* was such a time. Four years ago, the readership of >rec.pets.cats was estimated at over 80,000 subscribers. Today, with >the explosive growth of consumer Internet access, the number is certainly >much higher. >Considering the sheer number of subscribers and the high rate at which >they come and go, it is absurd to personally greet each new subscriber >through the newsgroup. If we were to do as you suggest, this newsgroup >would be flooded with off-topic messages and would become unusable for >any practical discussion. >– >David Thomas
(david-at-micro-dot-ti-dot-com) >Texas Instruments, Houston
(281)-274-2347
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> …There was also a time when _everyone would Welcome new people via POSTS.
No, there *never* was such a time. Four years ago, the readership of rec.pets.cats was estimated at over 80,000 subscribers. Today, with the explosive growth of consumer Internet access, the number is certainly much higher. Considering the sheer number of subscribers and the high rate at which they come and go, it is absurd to personally greet each new subscriber through the newsgroup. If we were to do as you suggest, this newsgroup would be flooded with off-topic messages and would become unusable for any practical discussion. — David Thomas (david-at-micro-dot-ti-dot-com) Texas Instruments, Houston (281)-274-2347
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Sorry to cause such a stir, but I’ve learned a lot of useful information today. Things like "meowchat" and "charter" and "off-topic" topics. Who’d have thought?? I certainly didn’t mean to do anything like this. All I wanted to know is why milk is so bad for kitties. Asking from Tora’s perspective was something I’ve never done before, nor will I do again anytime soon. Whew. Barbara: I use Newswatcher 2.3.5 and haven’t yet figured out a way to kill a message. Please let me know if you know anything about this software. Thanks. chow chow chow, beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >>milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >>enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >>*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >>beth & Tora >>You and your human can visit Tora at: >>http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html >Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was >created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us >find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to >the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to >health and behavior of course) that you’d like. >I believe you will want to check the charter. A question about milk for >cats is not off-topic. There is no restriction on writing style, nor >would pretending the post is from a cat necessarily qualify it as >meowchat. >What is important is that a post be about health or behavior. What are >off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the various >social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or >anecdotes. >barbara >P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have >posted in error.
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>x-no-archive: yes >Hello All: >It’s a sad day, when we cannot welcome new people via _any group! These >groups are meant for discussion of felines, I know. However, all of us can >try to inject "A little kindness with civility."
Unkindness and rudeness are categorized, IMHO, as "it takes all kinds." If it gets to where certain folks are consistently annoying, I sometimes use my "Kill Author" filter in my newsreader. It’s unfortunate, though. >Since when is welcoming people ‘Off-Topic?" No matter what the group title, >welcoming new people is needed. It’s also important [IMHO], to try very hard >to speak to each other kindly. Internal fighting/arguing isn’t what these >groups are supposed to exemplify. How does it look to the younger generation >when we are setting a nasty example?
Being courteous spans *all* generations. So do manners. >Understandably certain subjects become very passionate. However, since we are >responsible for "posting," why can’t we all just stand back and _read what >we’re sending _before hitting the send key? I don’t feel it’s ever too late >to salvage kindness sans bitterness. How about you?
My newsreader puts up some sort of warning phrase before I can actually post. When replying to something aggrevating, I often write a response to "get it out of my system," then trash it. It makes me feel better and no one is offended. BTW, my newsreader does not have a way of killing posts after I send it. It hits my server immediately as I’ve seen happen before. What would help prevent duplicate postings would be to do a search on certain subject words to make sure no one else has asked about your topic. There are sites for netiquette out there, if folks want to find them. Only thing is, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink." Best wishes to you, beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Regards, >Barb.[Bjp] >"Hugging Has No Harmful Side Effects" > ~Diana, Princess of Wales~ > ~ Please Visit My Webpage At: > http://inferno.cshore.com/bpfrommer <–[Click] >-> There’s so much to see and read. Favorite Links, > Diabetes Info, Hello & Welcome Site, much more!
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:> :>P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have :>posted in error. this works so poorly (and is ignored by many ISPs, to boot) that it makes *far more sense*, haha, to think twice before you hit the send button, however it works. — rob
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(something i’ve been thinking for some time) :…What are off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the :various social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or :anecdotes. i actually think they don’t even really belong there, for the most part. here’s something i wrote but didn’t post when it *got especially bad "for just a little few days" back there*. i didn’t send it in, conserving that old "band width", as they say. (it’s _bandwidth_, sweetie! and quite besides, has nothing to do with why it is so annoying and troublesome.) hi! my name is rob and my cat is lennie. but you knew that. it certainly is lovely to see all this comaraderie and warm personal messages on the rec.pets.cats.* newsgroups. if you’ve passed Usenet 1.01, however, and read the charters carefully, you will conclude i am sure that the only group where this kind of drivel is wanted or needed is rec.pets.cats.community. some time ago we spent a few months and a lot of energy taking apart rec.pets.cats, the original one true cat newsgroup. at first i didn’t really want a split at all, but now that we’ve had some experience with it i must say i like it. it has really helped focus things, and has largely eliminated (or segregated) most of the really annoying abuse that was clogging rec.pets.cats and nearly brought it to its knees. too bad about all the good people who left in disgust before we implemented the group-saving split. so, please. "be friendly". chat. post drivel. use the news mechanism for things email would be better for. if your email server (?) is down, by all means use the news to get all your important correspondence up to date. post "me too" and "atta boy" messages to your heart’s content. tear apart trolls before you know anything more than that you didn’t like something you think they may have said. quote the entire text of an earlier message and add one line. post HTML unwrapped lines to 256 characters. and if you can hack it, try MEOWCHAT. people seem to have the time to have fun with that, too. but at least do these things on the one part of this hierarchy where it is welcome, expected and approved: rec.pets.community. play here if you want, but try and make some effort to figure out how news really works and why some of us are so glad a place like rec.pets.cats.community exists! — rob
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>P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have >posted in error.
When I send a message, it is gone and on the ng so fast- within a minute, that I can’t retrieve any of them. I just make sure I proofread *before* I hit send. It’s not always perfect, but I try. Shelia
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:Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was :created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us :find incredibly stupid. but that wasn’t MEOWCHAT! it was perfectly grammatical English, the kind of post we all know our cats would be making if we let ‘em. true MEOWCHAT is a pathetic human abberation, for people with unusual language skills and, i suspect, way too much time on their hands! — rob
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >beth & Tora >You and your human can visit Tora at: >http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html >Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was >created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us >find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to >the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to >health and behavior of course) that you’d like.
I believe you will want to check the charter. A question about milk for cats is not off-topic. There is no restriction on writing style, nor would pretending the post is from a cat necessarily qualify it as meowchat. What is important is that a post be about health or behavior. What are off-topic for this group, if you want to play netcop, are the various social and welcome messages that more accurately belong in misc or anecdotes. barbara P.S. to Beth. Your software will have a way to cancel a message you have posted in error.
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[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time *I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. beth & Tora You and your human can visit Tora at: http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html
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>[thump to head] *Tora* recently posted a question about kitties drinking >milk and why it’s bad for them. Unfortunately, he didn’t scroll down far >enough on the list to see that it was already posted. That’s the last time >*I* let him play with my mouse. Sorry for the duplication. >beth & Tora >You and your human can visit Tora at: >http://www.macbeth.com/tora/index.html
Tora might also want to remember that one of the reasons this list was created was so that we could get away from Meowchat, which some of us find incredibly stupid. So please ask him to confine his comments to the proper list. You are welcome to ask all the questions (related to health and behavior of course) that you’d like.
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