any opinions on these two dry cat foods?

Question:

> i don't know but someone should come up with sampler packs, it's ridiculous > spending 7 bucks on a bag that they won't touch, and then another, and then > another, and pretty soon you just wasted 70 dollars on total crap...

FWIW, the pet store I buy Evolve, Wellness, Innova, etc. generally has sample sizes of the better dry foods. Worth asking around. If you're a regular customer, I'm sure any store that carries better food would order samples for you from their distributor. Rr

Response:

>FWIW, the pet store I buy Evolve, Wellness, Innova, etc. generally has >sample sizes of the better dry foods. Worth asking around. If you're a >regular customer, I'm sure any store that carries better food would order >samples for you from their distributor.

Some stores willl give you a refund if you bring the bag back and tell them your cat won't eat it. Lauren =^..^= Sandpaper kisses on a cheek or a chin-that is the way for a day to  begin! See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

Response:

>Its a good idea to accustom a cat to canned food while they're still young >so if (when) they need a canned diet for therapeutic purposes, they'll >accept the diet the diet more easily.  Its also *much* easier to make >dietary changes while the cat is healthy than when she's stressed by >illness.

Yes, I agree. Our cats were fed both canned and dry, and a variety of brands of each, since kittenhood. I've noticed, however, that now that they are middle aged it's not so easy to get them to eat more canned food and cut back on the dry.You know how much cats like ritual and regular schedules--since they're used to getting canned food in the morning and dry food in the evening, they act like we are nuts if we try to offer canned food in the evening! >On an equal quality basis, canned food is healthier for a cat, anyway.

Yes, I agree with that too, and so does my vet. I wish I'd known that a few years ago when our cats were young--we'd never have started with dry food.

Response:

i don't know but someone should come up with sampler packs, it's ridiculous spending 7 bucks on a bag that they won't touch, and then another, and then another, and pretty soon you just wasted 70 dollars on total crap... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, >but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: >http://www.bpn4u.com/ >Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance >Crude Protein : 30.0% >Crude Fat: 11.0% >Crude Fiber: 2.0% >Moisture : 10.0% >Ash: 4.9% > Calcium: 0.8% >Phosphorous 0.7% >Magnesium: : 0.11% >Taurine: 0.13% >Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish >Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. >I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

octinomos -- Esoterick: http://www.nyx.net/~dlongori/strck.htm. In fact, two banks located in Bahrain and Kuwait, The Faysal Islamic Bank and the Kuwait Finance House, which had been listed in European reports as having terrorist ties were glaringly omitted from George W Bush's financial crackdown after September 11th. [Source: The Inner City Press, 9-11-99.] Both banks have correspondent relationships with Deutschebank. --FTW.

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - > message >> >Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in >my >> >opinion has too much cereal. >> I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure >how >> that correlates. >That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather >will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that >goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein >is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding >trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). >The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's. So >only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food. > LOL. Thanks again for explaining.What is curious about the Burns food is that > if I go to their British Web site (they are a Scottish company) the nutritional > analysis of the British version of their cat food is different than the > American version. > Our cats eat both canned food and dry. I'd like to cut back on the dry and feed > all or primarily canned, but that's not proving to be so easy to do.

Cats' food texture preferences are strongly influenced by the type of food they were fed at a young age.  Due to limited budgets and personnel, most shelters feed their cats primarily dry food - which sometimes (usually) makes switching a cat over to canned food difficult. Its a good idea to accustom a cat to canned food while they're still young so if (when) they need a canned diet for therapeutic purposes, they'll accept the diet the diet more easily.  Its also *much* easier to make dietary changes while the cat is healthy than when she's stressed by illness. On an equal quality basis, canned food is healthier for a cat, anyway. Phil.

Response:

message - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> >Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in >my > >opinion has too much cereal. > I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure >how > that correlates. >That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather >will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that >goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein >is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding >trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). >The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's.  So >only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food.

LOL. Thanks again for explaining.What is curious about the Burns food is that if I go to their British Web site (they are a Scottish company) the nutritional analysis of the British version of their cat food is different than the American version. Our cats eat both canned food and dry. I'd like to cut back on the dry and feed all or primarily canned, but that's not proving to be so easy to do.

Response:

>Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my >opinion has too much cereal. > I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure how > that correlates.

That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's.  So only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food. Phil.

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>I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way. > I have taken open bags.  I was not sure if they would take them > either, but they said sure.

That's because we can return food for exchange.  The store (Petsmart & Petco) doesn't care where it comes from - they get full credit from the mfgers. Phil.

Response:

> > I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a > lot,

We've been using a dry food for years Kasco that's produced by Royal Canin Checking the ingredients I see the first is poultry. We've always been very happy with it, it's reasonably priced and our cats have all done well on it something I can't say for some of those high price dry cat foods that cost $ 32 CAN/20 lb. bag. Here is their web site http://www.kasco.com --

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> Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* >> excessive' - a

whopping 42%! Hi Phil, Curious... how do you figure the NFE ( carb) level? Thanks :) - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a > lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. > Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same > applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't > tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the > same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - > doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which > enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your > cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of > acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to > calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. > I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the > levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one > catogory. > Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping > 42%! > I'd pass on Burns. > Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called > Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to > paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! > Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin > E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed > Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic > acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no > dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... > Its your call. > Phil.

Response:

> > Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* >> excessive' - a > whopping 42%! > Hi Phil, > Curious... how do you figure the NFE ( carb) level? Thanks :)

NFE. is the difference between 100% and the amount of everything else in the food, - i.e. 100% - % moisture - % crude protein - % crude fat - % crude fiber - % ash = NFE. Phil

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a >lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. >Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same >applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't >tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the >same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - >doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which >enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your >cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of >acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to >calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. >I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the >levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one >catogory. >Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping >42%! >I'd pass on Burns.

Thanks for the explanation, Phil. I came across Burns at a pet show and got a free sample, which the cats liked, so I bought another bag. However, as I said, they aren't so keen on it any more. And I noticed one cat lost a few ounces on it (she doesn't need to lose weight). - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called >Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to >paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! >Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin >E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed >Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic >acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no >dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... >Its your call.

Well, several of the premium cat foods make the same claim, don't they? Preserved with vitamin E or some such. If that is the only drawback to a dry food, I'd still consider it. That was what the original version of Nutro claimed, right?

Response:

>I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, >but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: >http://www.bpn4u.com/ >Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance >I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient.

Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my opinion has too much cereal. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html

I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can be allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe they just want to sell more food?  LOL   Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

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>>Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! >Well, I've tried that one, and my two seemed to really like it.  I was >a bit skeptical because of the oats, but that didn't seem to bother >them.  It has round kibble, if that matters to your cats. >Rebecca

And following up to my own post, I think I would pass on the Burns. Like you, I would want meat/meat meal to be the first ingredient listed.  If you are looking for a limited-ingredient dry food, I'd go with California Natural, from Innova. Rebecca

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>And following up to my own post, I think I would pass on the Burns. >Like you, I would want meat/meat meal to be the first ingredient >listed.  If you are looking for a limited-ingredient dry food, I'd go >with California Natural, from Innova.

Well, I think I won't buy Burns again, although they seemed to really like it--at first. Now I am on the second bag and they are not so keen on it any more. Their favorites are still Wellness and Wysong. I'm trying to get away from the Nutro, which they also like. I tried California Natural once but it didn't go over too well. They like Innova better. Well, I guess I'll pick up a bag of the Pinnacle next time I go to the health food store. It might be ten dollars down the drain if they won't eat it, of course, but if they don't like it I doubt it would be because of the round kibble--the shape of kibble never seems to matter much to them. Thanks for the info.

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>Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my >opinion has too much cereal.

I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure how that correlates. Gee, I just noticed it is relatively low fat (compared to Wellness and Pinnacle)--no wonder my one cat that is prone to plumpness is a little sleeker now. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called >Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >be >allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe >they >just want to sell more food?  LOL  

I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it sounds like a fairly caloric food.

Response:

>>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >be >allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe >they >just want to sell more food?  LOL   >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it >sounds like a fairly caloric food.

Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. Rebecca

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I definitely "read" free-feeding as "x" amount of food given per day, but the cats are allowed to snack on that amount as they see fit throughout the day.  I don't understand it as "keep filling up the bowl no matter how much they consume". Cathy -- "Staccato signals of constant information..." ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >>than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >>be >>allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed. Maybe >>they >>just want to sell more food?  LOL >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it >sounds like a fairly caloric food. > Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not > sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since > they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. > They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of > food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* > As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they > have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they > don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. > Rebecca

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>Even if they >don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will.

I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk that somebody may have contaminated in some way.   Anna

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>>Even if they >don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. >I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way.  

You're right, the ones I donate to won't take opened bags.

Response:

>I definitely "read" free-feeding as "x" amount of food given per day, but >the cats are allowed to snack on that amount as they see fit throughout the >day.  I don't understand it as "keep filling up the bowl no matter how much >they consume".

I think you are right, because they always do seem to give suggested amounts to feed per day. Actually, in that respect, we do free feed, meaning I put out the dry food in the evening and they snack whenever they want during the night. (They get canned food in the morning). - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->-- >"Staccato signals of constant information..." >("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon > >>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds >better > >>than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats >can > >>be > >>allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed. >Maybe > >>they > >>just want to sell more food?  LOL > >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free >feeding--it > >sounds like a fairly caloric food. > Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not > sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since > they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. > They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of > food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* > As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they > have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they > don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. > Rebecca

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>I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way.  

I have taken open bags.  I was not sure if they would take them either, but they said sure. Teri

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient.

Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one catogory. Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping 42%! I'd pass on Burns. > Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... Its your call. Phil.

Response:

>Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Well, I've tried that one, and my two seemed to really like it.  I was a bit skeptical because of the oats, but that didn't seem to bother them.  It has round kibble, if that matters to your cats. Rebecca

Response:

I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: http://www.bpn4u.com/ Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance Crude Protein : 30.0% Crude Fat: 11.0% Crude Fiber: 2.0% Moisture : 10.0% Ash: 4.9%  Calcium: 0.8% Phosphorous 0.7% Magnesium: : 0.11% Taurine: 0.13% Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. Anyone tried this? http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Response:

> i don't know but someone should come up with sampler packs, it's ridiculous > spending 7 bucks on a bag that they won't touch, and then another, and then > another, and pretty soon you just wasted 70 dollars on total crap...

FWIW, the pet store I buy Evolve, Wellness, Innova, etc. generally has sample sizes of the better dry foods. Worth asking around. If you're a regular customer, I'm sure any store that carries better food would order samples for you from their distributor. Rr

Response:

>FWIW, the pet store I buy Evolve, Wellness, Innova, etc. generally has >sample sizes of the better dry foods. Worth asking around. If you're a >regular customer, I'm sure any store that carries better food would order >samples for you from their distributor.

Some stores willl give you a refund if you bring the bag back and tell them your cat won't eat it. Lauren =^..^= Sandpaper kisses on a cheek or a chin-that is the way for a day to  begin! See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

Response:

>Its a good idea to accustom a cat to canned food while they're still young >so if (when) they need a canned diet for therapeutic purposes, they'll >accept the diet the diet more easily.  Its also *much* easier to make >dietary changes while the cat is healthy than when she's stressed by >illness.

Yes, I agree. Our cats were fed both canned and dry, and a variety of brands of each, since kittenhood. I've noticed, however, that now that they are middle aged it's not so easy to get them to eat more canned food and cut back on the dry.You know how much cats like ritual and regular schedules--since they're used to getting canned food in the morning and dry food in the evening, they act like we are nuts if we try to offer canned food in the evening! >On an equal quality basis, canned food is healthier for a cat, anyway.

Yes, I agree with that too, and so does my vet. I wish I'd known that a few years ago when our cats were young--we'd never have started with dry food.

Response:

i don't know but someone should come up with sampler packs, it's ridiculous spending 7 bucks on a bag that they won't touch, and then another, and then another, and pretty soon you just wasted 70 dollars on total crap... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, >but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: >http://www.bpn4u.com/ >Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance >Crude Protein : 30.0% >Crude Fat: 11.0% >Crude Fiber: 2.0% >Moisture : 10.0% >Ash: 4.9% > Calcium: 0.8% >Phosphorous 0.7% >Magnesium: : 0.11% >Taurine: 0.13% >Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish >Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. >I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

octinomos -- Esoterick: http://www.nyx.net/~dlongori/strck.htm. In fact, two banks located in Bahrain and Kuwait, The Faysal Islamic Bank and the Kuwait Finance House, which had been listed in European reports as having terrorist ties were glaringly omitted from George W Bush's financial crackdown after September 11th. [Source: The Inner City Press, 9-11-99.] Both banks have correspondent relationships with Deutschebank. --FTW.

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - > message >> >Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in >my >> >opinion has too much cereal. >> I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure >how >> that correlates. >That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather >will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that >goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein >is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding >trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). >The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's. So >only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food. > LOL. Thanks again for explaining.What is curious about the Burns food is that > if I go to their British Web site (they are a Scottish company) the nutritional > analysis of the British version of their cat food is different than the > American version. > Our cats eat both canned food and dry. I'd like to cut back on the dry and feed > all or primarily canned, but that's not proving to be so easy to do.

Cats' food texture preferences are strongly influenced by the type of food they were fed at a young age.  Due to limited budgets and personnel, most shelters feed their cats primarily dry food - which sometimes (usually) makes switching a cat over to canned food difficult. Its a good idea to accustom a cat to canned food while they're still young so if (when) they need a canned diet for therapeutic purposes, they'll accept the diet the diet more easily.  Its also *much* easier to make dietary changes while the cat is healthy than when she's stressed by illness. On an equal quality basis, canned food is healthier for a cat, anyway. Phil.

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message - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> >Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in >my > >opinion has too much cereal. > I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure >how > that correlates. >That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather >will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that >goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein >is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding >trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). >The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's.  So >only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food.

LOL. Thanks again for explaining.What is curious about the Burns food is that if I go to their British Web site (they are a Scottish company) the nutritional analysis of the British version of their cat food is different than the American version. Our cats eat both canned food and dry. I'd like to cut back on the dry and feed all or primarily canned, but that's not proving to be so easy to do.

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>Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my >opinion has too much cereal. > I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure how > that correlates.

That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's.  So only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food. Phil.

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>I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way. > I have taken open bags.  I was not sure if they would take them > either, but they said sure.

That's because we can return food for exchange.  The store (Petsmart & Petco) doesn't care where it comes from - they get full credit from the mfgers. Phil.

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> > I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a > lot,

We've been using a dry food for years Kasco that's produced by Royal Canin Checking the ingredients I see the first is poultry. We've always been very happy with it, it's reasonably priced and our cats have all done well on it something I can't say for some of those high price dry cat foods that cost $ 32 CAN/20 lb. bag. Here is their web site http://www.kasco.com --

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> Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* >> excessive' - a

whopping 42%! Hi Phil, Curious... how do you figure the NFE ( carb) level? Thanks :) - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a > lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. > Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same > applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't > tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the > same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - > doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which > enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your > cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of > acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to > calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. > I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the > levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one > catogory. > Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping > 42%! > I'd pass on Burns. > Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called > Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to > paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! > Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin > E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed > Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic > acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no > dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... > Its your call. > Phil.

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> > Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* >> excessive' - a > whopping 42%! > Hi Phil, > Curious... how do you figure the NFE ( carb) level? Thanks :)

NFE. is the difference between 100% and the amount of everything else in the food, - i.e. 100% - % moisture - % crude protein - % crude fat - % crude fiber - % ash = NFE. Phil

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a >lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. >Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same >applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't >tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the >same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - >doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which >enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your >cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of >acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to >calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. >I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the >levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one >catogory. >Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping >42%! >I'd pass on Burns.

Thanks for the explanation, Phil. I came across Burns at a pet show and got a free sample, which the cats liked, so I bought another bag. However, as I said, they aren't so keen on it any more. And I noticed one cat lost a few ounces on it (she doesn't need to lose weight). - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called >Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to >paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! >Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin >E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed >Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic >acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no >dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... >Its your call.

Well, several of the premium cat foods make the same claim, don't they? Preserved with vitamin E or some such. If that is the only drawback to a dry food, I'd still consider it. That was what the original version of Nutro claimed, right?

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>I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, >but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: >http://www.bpn4u.com/ >Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance >I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient.

Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my opinion has too much cereal. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html

I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can be allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe they just want to sell more food?  LOL   Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

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>>Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! >Well, I've tried that one, and my two seemed to really like it.  I was >a bit skeptical because of the oats, but that didn't seem to bother >them.  It has round kibble, if that matters to your cats. >Rebecca

And following up to my own post, I think I would pass on the Burns. Like you, I would want meat/meat meal to be the first ingredient listed.  If you are looking for a limited-ingredient dry food, I'd go with California Natural, from Innova. Rebecca

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>And following up to my own post, I think I would pass on the Burns. >Like you, I would want meat/meat meal to be the first ingredient >listed.  If you are looking for a limited-ingredient dry food, I'd go >with California Natural, from Innova.

Well, I think I won't buy Burns again, although they seemed to really like it--at first. Now I am on the second bag and they are not so keen on it any more. Their favorites are still Wellness and Wysong. I'm trying to get away from the Nutro, which they also like. I tried California Natural once but it didn't go over too well. They like Innova better. Well, I guess I'll pick up a bag of the Pinnacle next time I go to the health food store. It might be ten dollars down the drain if they won't eat it, of course, but if they don't like it I doubt it would be because of the round kibble--the shape of kibble never seems to matter much to them. Thanks for the info.

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>Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my >opinion has too much cereal.

I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure how that correlates. Gee, I just noticed it is relatively low fat (compared to Wellness and Pinnacle)--no wonder my one cat that is prone to plumpness is a little sleeker now. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called >Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >be >allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe >they >just want to sell more food?  LOL  

I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it sounds like a fairly caloric food.

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>>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >be >allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe >they >just want to sell more food?  LOL   >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it >sounds like a fairly caloric food.

Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. Rebecca

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I definitely "read" free-feeding as "x" amount of food given per day, but the cats are allowed to snack on that amount as they see fit throughout the day.  I don't understand it as "keep filling up the bowl no matter how much they consume". Cathy -- "Staccato signals of constant information..." ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >>than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >>be >>allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed. Maybe >>they >>just want to sell more food?  LOL >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it >sounds like a fairly caloric food. > Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not > sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since > they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. > They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of > food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* > As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they > have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they > don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. > Rebecca

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>Even if they >don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will.

I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk that somebody may have contaminated in some way.   Anna

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>>Even if they >don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. >I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way.  

You're right, the ones I donate to won't take opened bags.

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>I definitely "read" free-feeding as "x" amount of food given per day, but >the cats are allowed to snack on that amount as they see fit throughout the >day.  I don't understand it as "keep filling up the bowl no matter how much >they consume".

I think you are right, because they always do seem to give suggested amounts to feed per day. Actually, in that respect, we do free feed, meaning I put out the dry food in the evening and they snack whenever they want during the night. (They get canned food in the morning). - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->-- >"Staccato signals of constant information..." >("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon > >>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds >better > >>than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats >can > >>be > >>allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed. >Maybe > >>they > >>just want to sell more food?  LOL > >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free >feeding--it > >sounds like a fairly caloric food. > Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not > sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since > they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. > They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of > food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* > As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they > have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they > don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. > Rebecca

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>I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way.  

I have taken open bags.  I was not sure if they would take them either, but they said sure. Teri

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient.

Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one catogory. Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping 42%! I'd pass on Burns. > Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... Its your call. Phil.

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>Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Well, I've tried that one, and my two seemed to really like it.  I was a bit skeptical because of the oats, but that didn't seem to bother them.  It has round kibble, if that matters to your cats. Rebecca

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I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: http://www.bpn4u.com/ Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance Crude Protein : 30.0% Crude Fat: 11.0% Crude Fiber: 2.0% Moisture : 10.0% Ash: 4.9%  Calcium: 0.8% Phosphorous 0.7% Magnesium: : 0.11% Taurine: 0.13% Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. Anyone tried this? http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

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> i don't know but someone should come up with sampler packs, it's ridiculous > spending 7 bucks on a bag that they won't touch, and then another, and then > another, and pretty soon you just wasted 70 dollars on total crap...

FWIW, the pet store I buy Evolve, Wellness, Innova, etc. generally has sample sizes of the better dry foods. Worth asking around. If you're a regular customer, I'm sure any store that carries better food would order samples for you from their distributor. Rr

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>FWIW, the pet store I buy Evolve, Wellness, Innova, etc. generally has >sample sizes of the better dry foods. Worth asking around. If you're a >regular customer, I'm sure any store that carries better food would order >samples for you from their distributor.

Some stores willl give you a refund if you bring the bag back and tell them your cat won't eat it. Lauren =^..^= Sandpaper kisses on a cheek or a chin-that is the way for a day to  begin! See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

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>Its a good idea to accustom a cat to canned food while they're still young >so if (when) they need a canned diet for therapeutic purposes, they'll >accept the diet the diet more easily.  Its also *much* easier to make >dietary changes while the cat is healthy than when she's stressed by >illness.

Yes, I agree. Our cats were fed both canned and dry, and a variety of brands of each, since kittenhood. I've noticed, however, that now that they are middle aged it's not so easy to get them to eat more canned food and cut back on the dry.You know how much cats like ritual and regular schedules--since they're used to getting canned food in the morning and dry food in the evening, they act like we are nuts if we try to offer canned food in the evening! >On an equal quality basis, canned food is healthier for a cat, anyway.

Yes, I agree with that too, and so does my vet. I wish I'd known that a few years ago when our cats were young--we'd never have started with dry food.

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i don't know but someone should come up with sampler packs, it's ridiculous spending 7 bucks on a bag that they won't touch, and then another, and then another, and pretty soon you just wasted 70 dollars on total crap... - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, >but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: >http://www.bpn4u.com/ >Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance >Crude Protein : 30.0% >Crude Fat: 11.0% >Crude Fiber: 2.0% >Moisture : 10.0% >Ash: 4.9% > Calcium: 0.8% >Phosphorous 0.7% >Magnesium: : 0.11% >Taurine: 0.13% >Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish >Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. >I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

octinomos -- Esoterick: http://www.nyx.net/~dlongori/strck.htm. In fact, two banks located in Bahrain and Kuwait, The Faysal Islamic Bank and the Kuwait Finance House, which had been listed in European reports as having terrorist ties were glaringly omitted from George W Bush's financial crackdown after September 11th. [Source: The Inner City Press, 9-11-99.] Both banks have correspondent relationships with Deutschebank. --FTW.

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - > message >> >Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in >my >> >opinion has too much cereal. >> I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure >how >> that correlates. >That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather >will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that >goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein >is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding >trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). >The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's. So >only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food. > LOL. Thanks again for explaining.What is curious about the Burns food is that > if I go to their British Web site (they are a Scottish company) the nutritional > analysis of the British version of their cat food is different than the > American version. > Our cats eat both canned food and dry. I'd like to cut back on the dry and feed > all or primarily canned, but that's not proving to be so easy to do.

Cats' food texture preferences are strongly influenced by the type of food they were fed at a young age.  Due to limited budgets and personnel, most shelters feed their cats primarily dry food - which sometimes (usually) makes switching a cat over to canned food difficult. Its a good idea to accustom a cat to canned food while they're still young so if (when) they need a canned diet for therapeutic purposes, they'll accept the diet the diet more easily.  Its also *much* easier to make dietary changes while the cat is healthy than when she's stressed by illness. On an equal quality basis, canned food is healthier for a cat, anyway. Phil.

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message - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> >Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in >my > >opinion has too much cereal. > I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure >how > that correlates. >That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather >will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that >goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein >is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding >trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). >The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's.  So >only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food.

LOL. Thanks again for explaining.What is curious about the Burns food is that if I go to their British Web site (they are a Scottish company) the nutritional analysis of the British version of their cat food is different than the American version. Our cats eat both canned food and dry. I'd like to cut back on the dry and feed all or primarily canned, but that's not proving to be so easy to do.

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>Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my >opinion has too much cereal. > I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure how > that correlates.

That's 'crude protein', and doesn't mean its all bioavailable.  Shoe leather will analyze as protein - see what I mean?  Gotta compare the protein that goes in against the protein that comes out to know how much of the protein is actually digestible and usable.  Ask for the results of the feeding trials (they probably won't give them to you, but try any way). The NFE (carbohydrate) content is high (31%) - but not as bad a Burn's.  So only 31% of your money is wasted - not too bad for dry food. Phil.

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>I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way. > I have taken open bags.  I was not sure if they would take them > either, but they said sure.

That's because we can return food for exchange.  The store (Petsmart & Petco) doesn't care where it comes from - they get full credit from the mfgers. Phil.

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> > I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a > lot,

We've been using a dry food for years Kasco that's produced by Royal Canin Checking the ingredients I see the first is poultry. We've always been very happy with it, it's reasonably priced and our cats have all done well on it something I can't say for some of those high price dry cat foods that cost $ 32 CAN/20 lb. bag. Here is their web site http://www.kasco.com --

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> Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* >> excessive' - a

whopping 42%! Hi Phil, Curious... how do you figure the NFE ( carb) level? Thanks :) - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a > lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. > Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same > applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't > tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the > same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - > doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which > enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your > cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of > acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to > calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. > I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the > levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one > catogory. > Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping > 42%! > I'd pass on Burns. > Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called > Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to > paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! > Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin > E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed > Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic > acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no > dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... > Its your call. > Phil.

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> > Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* >> excessive' - a > whopping 42%! > Hi Phil, > Curious... how do you figure the NFE ( carb) level? Thanks :)

NFE. is the difference between 100% and the amount of everything else in the food, - i.e. 100% - % moisture - % crude protein - % crude fat - % crude fiber - % ash = NFE. Phil

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a >lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. >Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same >applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't >tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the >same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - >doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which >enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your >cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of >acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to >calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. >I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the >levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one >catogory. >Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping >42%! >I'd pass on Burns.

Thanks for the explanation, Phil. I came across Burns at a pet show and got a free sample, which the cats liked, so I bought another bag. However, as I said, they aren't so keen on it any more. And I noticed one cat lost a few ounces on it (she doesn't need to lose weight). - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called >Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to >paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! >Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin >E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed >Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic >acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no >dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... >Its your call.

Well, several of the premium cat foods make the same claim, don't they? Preserved with vitamin E or some such. If that is the only drawback to a dry food, I'd still consider it. That was what the original version of Nutro claimed, right?

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>I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, >but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: >http://www.bpn4u.com/ >Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance >I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient.

Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my opinion has too much cereal. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html

I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can be allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe they just want to sell more food?  LOL   Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

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>>Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!! >Well, I've tried that one, and my two seemed to really like it.  I was >a bit skeptical because of the oats, but that didn't seem to bother >them.  It has round kibble, if that matters to your cats. >Rebecca

And following up to my own post, I think I would pass on the Burns. Like you, I would want meat/meat meal to be the first ingredient listed.  If you are looking for a limited-ingredient dry food, I'd go with California Natural, from Innova. Rebecca

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>And following up to my own post, I think I would pass on the Burns. >Like you, I would want meat/meat meal to be the first ingredient >listed.  If you are looking for a limited-ingredient dry food, I'd go >with California Natural, from Innova.

Well, I think I won't buy Burns again, although they seemed to really like it--at first. Now I am on the second bag and they are not so keen on it any more. Their favorites are still Wellness and Wysong. I'm trying to get away from the Nutro, which they also like. I tried California Natural once but it didn't go over too well. They like Innova better. Well, I guess I'll pick up a bag of the Pinnacle next time I go to the health food store. It might be ten dollars down the drain if they won't eat it, of course, but if they don't like it I doubt it would be because of the round kibble--the shape of kibble never seems to matter much to them. Thanks for the info.

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>Yes, I think it should definitely be the first ingredient.  This food in my >opinion has too much cereal.

I thought so, but then it also has a high protein content, so I'm not sure how that correlates. Gee, I just noticed it is relatively low fat (compared to Wellness and Pinnacle)--no wonder my one cat that is prone to plumpness is a little sleeker now. >Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called >Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >be >allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe >they >just want to sell more food?  LOL  

I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it sounds like a fairly caloric food.

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>>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >be >allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed.  Maybe >they >just want to sell more food?  LOL   >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it >sounds like a fairly caloric food.

Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. Rebecca

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I definitely "read" free-feeding as "x" amount of food given per day, but the cats are allowed to snack on that amount as they see fit throughout the day.  I don't understand it as "keep filling up the bowl no matter how much they consume". Cathy -- "Staccato signals of constant information..." ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds better >>than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats can >>be >>allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed. Maybe >>they >>just want to sell more food?  LOL >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free feeding--it >sounds like a fairly caloric food. > Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not > sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since > they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. > They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of > food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* > As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they > have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they > don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. > Rebecca

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>Even if they >don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will.

I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk that somebody may have contaminated in some way.   Anna

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>>Even if they >don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. >I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way.  

You're right, the ones I donate to won't take opened bags.

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>I definitely "read" free-feeding as "x" amount of food given per day, but >the cats are allowed to snack on that amount as they see fit throughout the >day.  I don't understand it as "keep filling up the bowl no matter how much >they consume".

I think you are right, because they always do seem to give suggested amounts to feed per day. Actually, in that respect, we do free feed, meaning I put out the dry food in the evening and they snack whenever they want during the night. (They get canned food in the morning). - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->-- >"Staccato signals of constant information..." >("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon > >>I've seen their Avo Derm food in Whole Foods before.  This food sounds >better > >>than the first one and I like that they don't use corn, which some cats >can > >>be > >>allergic to.  I don't agree with their advice though to free feed. >Maybe > >>they > >>just want to sell more food?  LOL > >I think I'll try the Pinnacle. I do think it's odd they advise free >feeding--it > >sounds like a fairly caloric food. > Most of the dry foods that I have seen advise free-feeding.  I'm not > sure that they mean "just dump food in the bowl and walk away", since > they also have explicit feeding instructions for various weights. > They may just be emphasizing that you can leave a measured amount of > food out all day, unlike with wet food that will spoil.  *shrug* > As to wasting the money on it if the cats don't like it, see if they > have a return policy on the bag before you buy it.  Even if they > don't, if your kitties don't like it, I'm sure the shelter cats will. > Rebecca

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>I didn't think shelters took donations of open bags of food.  Too much risk >that somebody may have contaminated in some way.  

I have taken open bags.  I was not sure if they would take them either, but they said sure. Teri

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, > but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: > http://www.bpn4u.com/ > Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance > Crude Protein : 30.0% > Crude Fat: 11.0% > Crude Fiber: 2.0% > Moisture : 10.0% > Ash: 4.9% >  Calcium: 0.8% > Phosphorous 0.7% > Magnesium: : 0.11% > Taurine: 0.13% > Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish > Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. > I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient.

Fresh meat can't be used in dry pet foods - only dried ingredients; the same applies to fat.  The phosphorus and calcium levels seem ok  However, I can't tell if the phosphorus is derived from plant or meat - they're not the same - or if the phosphorus in the digest was included in the total P - doesn't have to be.  Digest contains considerable phosphoric acid - which enhances palatibility 3 to 4 times over treated dry food - could be why your cats like it so much.  However, phosphoric acid also increases the amount of acid ingested by the cat... Watch their urine pH - could predispose them to calcium oxalate - especially if Burns also uses a urine acidifier. I'm also not crazy about seaweed - and the iodine it contains - since the levels aren't listed.  An ingredient can be listed by more than one catogory. Also, the NFE (carbohydrate) level is '*excessively* excessive' - a whopping 42%! I'd pass on Burns. > Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. > Anyone tried this? > http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html > (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in > here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to > try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Not bad. But  'Preserved with Mixed Tocoperols, a Source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a Source of Vitamin C' is misleading.  The 'Mixed Tocoperols' are not bioavailable to the cat as active vitamin E and ascorbic acid is excreted in the urine as oxalate - not to mention the cat has no dietary need for vitamin C, to begin with... Its your call. Phil.

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>Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. >Anyone tried this? >http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html >(the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in >here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to >try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

Well, I've tried that one, and my two seemed to really like it.  I was a bit skeptical because of the oats, but that didn't seem to bother them.  It has round kibble, if that matters to your cats. Rebecca

Response:

I've fed a bag of Burns Real Food for cats (dry) and the cats like it a lot, but I wonder how this food compares to Wellness or similar: http://www.bpn4u.com/ Analysis for Burns Feline Maintenance Crude Protein : 30.0% Crude Fat: 11.0% Crude Fiber: 2.0% Moisture : 10.0% Ash: 4.9%  Calcium: 0.8% Phosphorous 0.7% Magnesium: : 0.11% Taurine: 0.13% Ingredients: Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Peas, Corn, Chicken Fat, Ocean Fish Meal, Chicken Digest, Seaweed. I wonder if meat shouldn't be the first ingredient. Also, just noticed a new dry food at the local health store, called Pinnacle. Anyone tried this? http://www.avoderm.com/Cat_Products/pinnacle_dry.html (the nutrition chart and ingredients list is on this page, too long to paste in here). This one sounds pretty good. I guess I should have bought a bag to try--except it was even more expensive than Wellness!!!!

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